81 replies to this topic

[M1551n9n0]

Walls and fences never stop people from climbing over them. The Berlin Wall never worked, the Great Wall of China didn't work, and this wall won't work. So I think the US Government shouldn't be wasting money on building a wall.

[dirago]

... I think that those who say that illegal immigrants are destroying the economy/getting free wellfare and all that crap should do a little bit of research.Illegal immigrants do pay taxes, and not just sales taxes, but income as well.That's why the government has done absolutely nothing about them, because they are taxing them thus getting more money, and the only thing they have to do is spend 10% of the money they get to give them medicaid, foodstamps and all that crap.

[dirago]

@TheBleedingOnion: Yes, I did read your post, but I have no comment to say about it other than "Ok..."And, trust me, I fully understand the issue. I am a Peruvian citizen currently living in the United States. I did not come here illegally, nor am I currently staying here illegally. However, since I'm not a US Citizen, I had to go throught the same process illegal immigrants do and obtain the same documents they use to work.It's called a W7 (or IRS individual taxpayer identification number) . look into it if you want.While the process to obtain it has been redone last year. Before you didn't need to show that you were in the US legally to obtain it. Why? Because the government knows that they could tax them and get more money that way.The US government does know who and where they are. There are simply not enough room in the jails for every one of them, nor is there money to deport every one of them. You've obviously never wonder why they always raid places where there are lots of illegal immigrants. It's not "luck."And to comment on your "points""1. L.A. County has 10 million people. 40% of all workers in L.A. County are working for cash and not paying taxes. This is because they are predominantly illegal immigrants, working without a green card."Read what a green card is. There are at least three other documents you can use to work on the US legally. Among them, W7, AUC, Employment Visa."2. Of the 10 million people in L.A. County, 5.1 million people speak English. 3.9 million speak only Spanish"Funny how you can know the numbers without knowing "where they are.""3. 95% of warrants for murder in Los Angeles are for illegal aliens."How do they know they are illegal alliens? Their names don't appear on the Database? Ever heard of an ALIAS?"5. Over two-thirds of all births in Los Angeles County are to illegal alien Mexicans on Medi-Cal whose births were paid for by taxpayers. "Who cares about the parents. The babies are born on the United States thus they are US citizens and get the benefits that are paid by taxpayers. Not the parents."6. Nearly 25% of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals here illegally."And will be deported, what's your point?"7. Over 300,000 illegal aliens in Los Angeles County are living in garages."oh, so now you know how many and where they are, but you just told me the opposite thing a few minutes ago."10. 21 radio stations in L.A. are Spanish language only."So? There's a big population of Spanish speaking people in L.A. Which you said so yourself a little bit ago. If there were a lot of english speaking people in Mexico, I'm sure there would be at least one english radio station."Thats just dealing with one state, now lets look at a national scale."One State? Well I guess L.A. is state number 51."1. Less than 2% of illegal aliens are picking our crops but 36% are on welfare. "Again, numbers, numbers, numbers .... how can you know the numbers when you don't even know who they are ..."2. Over 70% of the United States annual population growth (and over 90% of California, Florida, and New York) results from immigration. "How can you know that if there's no way to check that they are here."3. The United States receives more immigrants every year than the rest of the world combined."How can you know that when they enter illegally?"5. The lifetime fiscal impact (taxes paid minus services used) for the average adult Mexican immigrant is a NEGATIVE."But I thought you said that they don't pay taxes ... unless you are talking about legal immigrants which have to pay thousands to get the documents to enter the US legally, and why would they be given the documents to enter legally if they are going to hurt the economy?------------------I think it is you who doesn't fully understand the issue.

Edited by dirago, 05 February 2008 - 11:01 PM.

[dirago]

"i do, you see it isnt exactly cheap to deliver a child into this world in a hospital. those parents had no right to be here, and yet we just paid for them to have a kid. now the kid i have nothing against, its not their fault their parents broke the law."So, you are saying that the kids, american citizens, should not be given proper care at birth because their parents broke the law? What about kids of American citizens that have also broken the law? should they not be allowed proper care either?"That they commit alot of the crimes in the areas they are in."And so do American Citizens."i never said that. and if i did, please point out where so that i can say that these are not statistics that i wrote, i got them from another source."You said the following "the government would know who and where they were," therefore implying that they don't know who nor where they are."if you would bother reading the statistics all the way through, you would see that they make refernece to both california AND LA, and california IS a state. please read something all the way through before you try to make me seem incompetent"I bothered reading all of that, probably shouldn't have, since you obviosly didn't.Points 1,2,3,4,5,7,8, and 10 talk about L.A. only 6 mentions California. and nine mentions neither."this is out of the ones we DO know about, obviously we cant relate it to the ones we dont know about."Then how do you know about them? And if the government does know about them, why aren't they being deported?"they still get mail dont they? if they have an address then you can run a check on who they are, and if they dont come up in the system or come up with a stolen name or something of the sort, then.... there is a problem."Again, why aren't they being deported then? You are giving even more prove that the governemt does know where they are, down to their address."that specific statistic only refers to immigrants, it doesnt mention illegals, although those fall into a sub catagory of immigrants. like i said, i did not write these statistics myself. read carefully =p"This is a topic about ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS, what's the point of saying that the United States gets more tourist than other countries?"Taxes payed versus services used. that means the total amount of taxes that illegal immigrants pump into our economy (which would only be a small amount of sales tax since they still need to buy food) ..."Look into the W7 as I asked you ... they do pay taxes to the IRS."... minus the services used (medical attention if they get injured, delivering their illegal child into a hospital which costs thousands of dollars. i can go on but ill stop here) ..."Medical attention?!! Are YOU FREAKING SERIOUS? What makes you think they have insurance? If they get hurt, they have to pay for it themselves. Which actually means ... more money towards the economy and less for the them. The kids I have already replied to.And your little "math problem" ... it's completely wrong.You mentioned that the only taxes they pay is sales taxes. I have already said multiple times that it is not. If you don't feel like researching on a W7, drop that subject.Oh, and ...What about rent? Or the price of a House? What about electric, water, and telephone bills? What about buying a car? What about gas for that car? what about buying clothes? What about medical bills? ( since the work that they do usually results with injuries) Do you really think that they pop out a kid every year?You try living having a kid every year and only spending money on food and lets see how long you last.

Edited by dirago, 06 February 2008 - 06:32 AM.

[dirago]

1) i did not say that the children should not be cared for, i said that this is a negative impact that their parents who are the illegal immigrants are having on that particular area of the economy.2) true american citizens do break the law, but in the areas of the country heavily populated by illegal immigrants, the crime is much much worse. coincidence? i think not.3) when i said "the government would know who and where they were" that was in reference to why they can not pay income tax, because if they did then the government would know where they were. what that means is that the government does not know where every single illegal immigrant is, but we do know where some of them are, and we know where the areas they are concentrated in are. to be honest... im not entirely sure what your asking about this one... maybe re-phrase it so i can answer better.4) even if only 1 of 10 of those facts talks about CA and the rest talk about LA or neither, that is still making reference to both CA and LA, and LA is in CA, there fore all of the issues that affect LA affect CA, so again, if your gonna try to make me look stupid "LA must be the 51st state" try harder.5) The government knows where many illegal families are, but they cant deport them all because they dont have enough man power, or enough money to track all of them down and deport them. and as i said before, the ones who get deported often come back.6) Here is the difference between an immigrant and a tourist, tourists come and they go back home. an immigrant stays and makes a living. Now again, i am not the one who originaly wrote these statistics, but SOME of those immigrants happen to be illegal. 7) The immigrants that have a W7 probly arnt illegal since they are informing the government of who they are, what they do, and where they live and provide a portion of their income. illegals do not use W7's, they have no green cards, and no work visa.8) The example i gave was in the state of california but how about this one then. An illegal robs someone and gets caught and they are sent to jail, they day of their trial arrives and they can not afford a lawyer. under the US constitution a lawyer must be privded to him from the state. which is a blow to tax payers. also if an illegal comes over here, has children, and those children go to public schools (im still not sure how they get into public schools if their parents are illegal) thats money being sucked right out of the tax payers pockets, and those childrens parents are not significantly contributing to that school system. 9) my math problem is completely wrong? im sorry but no matter how i look at it 300 - 10,000 is = 9,700 i dont know what kind of world you live in where that is wrong, but.... can i buy some of that stuff from you?10) as for the W7 comment, again, if they have a W7, they probly arn't illegal. 11) what about all that indeed. no, i dont beleive that EVERY single illegal has a kid every year. but they certainly are a prolific people are they not? look at the birth rates in this country, the dominant race of new born babies is becomming hispanic, that is to say that they DO reproduce much faster than the rest of us. 12) as for your comment about me having a kid every year and spending money only on food to see how much i last. heres the thing, you see, there are these devices i like to call condoms.... and, they prevent pregnancy pretty well... also there are other birth controls, AND im not ready to have children. as for the part about buying only food and rent and w/e... i already do that, nice try =p but i can already relate to that. and what purpose did that last bit really serve towards the debate?

1) The last part of my previous post talks about that, I'll go more into dept later.2) No, it's not a coincidence. It's a pattern. Ever heard of Five Points in New York? Various notorious gangs made up of immigrants started there, however most of those were pressured into gangs by the way they were treated by american citizens. Hispanics are just the new link in that chain.3) No, the goverment does know where they are because they do pay taxes. I know many illegal immigrants and they all pay taxes. Because they all have a W7.4) "all of the issues that affect LA affect CA" ... Wrong. What you are doing is called a "generalization". L.A. also has smog and car jams, but that doesn't mean that California has those problems.5) (From point 3)"the government does not know [...] but we do know where some of them are"(From point 5) "The government knows where many illegal families are"I consider some and many to be a big difference.6) And making a living means expending a lot more money than a tourist will ever do.7) W7, a green card, and a work visa are three completely different things. In the past (before 2007) You could literally just walk into a IRS office and ask for a W7 just by giving your name, now you actually have to prove that you are legally in the United States. However, a W7 is like the SS, it doesn't expire, so they are millions of illegal immigrants who were given the document to be taxed by the Government. I have one, and many illegal immigrants I know have one.8) Actually, if someone is found to be an illegal by the police, they go directly into jail and into the process of deportation. No trial.A family friend was send into jail in the year 2005, and he stayed there for almost a year before being deported (Even though he signed a voluntary departure form which meant that he would pay for his way out of the country himself) There was no lawyer, no trial, and because he payed for his way out, the government didn't have to spend a single cent.Oh, and those children get into public school because of one simple fact ... THEY ARE AMERICAN CITIZENS!!And yes, their parents do contribute to the school system, they get taxed just like every other person with a job.9) You told me not to insult your inteligence, yet you show me no reason why I shouldn't.I never said your math or calculations were wrong. Your problem or "example" is.I'm going to quote myself now. "I am a Peruvian citizen currently living in the United States." And you say I should read ...10) Oh, they are illegal.11) The rest of us? Wow, so now you are also a racist who believes that that the hispanic race is in a completely different group than "the rest of us" 12) Yet again you show me that you don't read. I never said that you should spend in all of that. That is the data that you left out of your little "math problem" Illegal immigrants have to spend money into all of that just like every other person, hence they pump a lot more money into the economy than $300 a year.

Edited by dirago, 06 February 2008 - 07:57 AM.

[dirago]

2) thank you for proving my point you admit that illegal immigrants do significantly contribute to crime in the areas in which they reside.3) with the W7 if they are paying taxes, they arnt illegal are they? because if they were something would have happend and as you said in number 7 you now have to prove your legal to obtain one. thanks again, for proving one of my points.4) how does something that affects LA NOT have an impact on the rest of CA? if you break your arm, does your body not have a problem to? you bet your arse it does.5) "some" refers to individuals "many" refers to families, it is much harder to hide a family than to hide one person dont you think?6) yes, making a living here would mean they would spend more money here than a tourist would. however if they are here illegaly it is still against the law, and they are still a drain on the economy. i would also like to add that (although they dont intend to do this) in many areas of the US having hispanic neighbors lowers your property value, again, they dont mean to, just another example of how they are a drain on the economy. (if there wernt so many illegals here then this would not be a significant decrease in land value)7) re-read number 38) for certain crimes, they dont get deported, they just sit in jail, which is again, a burden on the tax payers. if an illegal kills someone in the US, do you think we would deport them? hell no, they are going to get a trial and either a very long sentence in jail, or the death penalty, which still involves many years of sitting in a prison cell before you are executed.9) just because you are a Peruvian citizen doesnt mean you know any more than i do about the situation. and about the dont insult my intelligence, really, dont do it =p ill just make you look stupid like i am now. 10) your telling me that a person who exposes themselvs to our government, and tells them who they are what they do how much money they make and where they live, and then pays taxes into our government are illegal? no no, they may not have a green card or absolute citizenship, but they have a right to be here if they do that and are allowed to stay.11) lmfao... your calling me a racist now? attack the argument not the person my friend, no i am not a racist. this is a proven fact, if you dont like it, then deny reality, otherwise, deal with it. HISPANICS ARE HAVING MORE BABIES THAN "THE REST OF US" ok? "the rest of us" means EVERYONE who is not hispanic. did i say i have anything against hispanics? no. just the ones that are here illegaly. 12) what do you mean you didnt try to tell me to live like that? i am quoteing your exactly here "You try living having a kid every year and only spending money on food and lets see how long you last." and you got my response last time. and ok, you dont like that problem? i was just trying to keep it simple, but i can go on with more, so lets. we will keep the base input into the economy via sales tax of $300 a year. but this time let us say that we will include the base cost of everything that illegal immigrant buys, and since they are obviously in a state of poverty, we will assume that this amount is in the under $15000 mark, so i will be generous and say that in total they contribute $15300 a year. now let us look at expenses should an illegal immigrant do certain things...Illegal immigrant enacts a crime punishable at the federal level. this means that they must now go to court, and will not be deported since it was a federal crime and if convicted will serve time in a federal prison. it costs an average of around $30,000 a year to cloth, feed, and house a prisoner and make sure that all of their needs are met. lawyers.... they wont be able to afford one for the trial so one must be appointed to them, they arnt cheap, beleive me. for the sake of kindness, lets assume that the case is over in one month (highly unlikely) and that the lawyer fees are $10,000 (cheap as far as federal criminal lawyers go, many charge $200+ an hour to work on your case plus any fees associated with the court) so far the imigrant in one year has privided $15,300 and cost the government around $40,000 that sound more reasonable to you? if you dont like this problem i can come up with more.

2) I never said illegal immigrants contribute to Crime. Read better. History shows that IMMIGRANTS in general contribute to crime, whether they be legal or not.3) Wrong. They are still illegal because they entered the country illegally, the word is ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT thus meaning that they immigrated illegally. And nothing has happened to them because the goverment doesn't care as long as they can be taxed. And for the "proving you are legal." I can get a forged passport with a work visa on it for 20 bucks. That doesn't prove anything, they can still get them, and are getting them.4) No, if you break an arm your leg won't suddenly stop working, or you won't be able to breath, or eat. You can't simply use the arm that is broken. Only your arm has a problem not the rest of your body.5) No, I don't think so. A family tends to live comfortably in a house thus appearing to be legal. Individuals tend to bunch up in groups in one house alone thus being obvious that 10+ people are living in a two bedroom house.6) I never said it was against the law, everyone knows that it is, but they are not a drain on the economy. Again, your pointing out hispanics as a "bad race" I can point out places in the US where blacks, whites, ans asians "lower the property" value as well.7) re-read number 38) Again, this prove you don't know anything about what's going on. If somebody is found to be an illegal, there's no trial, and they are deported. Period. If they commited a crime, then they stay in jail a couple of years depending on what their crime was and then they are deported. Again, there's no trial.9) If you don't want me to insult your intelligence give me proof that you even have one.Because I am a peruvian citizen I know everything that's going on. I have spoken with hispanics, both legal and illegal, I have gone to the goverment and talk with officials there, read the laws, talked with immigration lawyers, filled out form after form. Learned about the Immigration problems first hand.What have you done? Sit around and repeat the things that you've heard from others.10) Yeah, that's what I'm trying to tell you, and the government doesnt care. Why? because they get to keep all that extra money.11) A proven fact by who? You are proving that you are racist by demeaning and name tagging hispanics, give me a prove of what you say and I will stop calling you one.Heck, I know you'll just drag this longer than it needs so I will simply disproof you.This is a census of Mexico population's in the year 2000 (if you want the exact numbers you have to click on "extract data" at the bottom of the page)http://www.census.go...it=Submit QueryIf you take a look at it, you can see that there's roughly 11 million babies (ages 0-4) and 99 million total. meaning that babies make up 11% of Mexico's population.Peru:http://www.census.go...it=Submit Query11.4%Argentina:http://www.census.go...it=Submit Query8.9%Cuba:http://www.census.go...it=Submit Query6.7%USA:http://www.census.go...it=Submit Query6.9%Afghanistan:http://www.census.go...it=Submit Query18%Kenya:http://www.census.go...it=Submit Query15%Togo:http://www.census.go...it=Submit Query16%Philippines:http://www.census.go...it=Submit Query13.2%India:http://www.census.go...it=Submit Query12%Sure, hispanic countries may not have the lowest percentage of births, but they definetly don't have the highest either.12) *sigh* why don't you read? I told you to live having a kid every year and only buying food. NOT LIVING SPENDING IN "ALL OF THAT"I was replying to what you wrote, but since you've obviously forgotten what it was, here it is ... "as for the part about buying only food and rent and w/e... i already do that""obviously in a state of poverty" Wow, I didn't know that getting paid 15 dollars (or more) an hour in the construction bussiness meant you were poor, that's a new one for me.My lawyer cost me 7500 for 18 months ... It's better if you don't make up data like you are doing right now.And I'm sure someone could afford a lawyer like that getting paid 15 dollars an hour.And it may cost 30,000 to maintain a prisoner in a prison a year, but what about the other twelve million immigrants who have not commited a crime and are pumping money into the economy?Even with your "theory" that illegal immigrants make 15,000 a year, that's still adds up to 180,000,000,000In other words, you would need two illegal immigrants making 15,000 a year to "maintain" one inmate and I can tell you that the number of illegal immigrants in this country is much higher than twice the number of inmates.Of course there will be illegal immigrants who commit crimes, just like citizens do. Don't try to antagonize hispanics simply becuase there are some who commit crimes.Oh, and if it's a federal crime, then they do get a trial, but they are still deported once their sentence is up.

[dirago]

2) yes you did say that they do, because you agreed with what i said last post... and i quote "History shows that IMMIGRANTS in general contribute to crime, whether they be legal or not." so if you dont beleive that, then your lying through your teeth. er... fingers, w/e3) ok, i can buy that argument, they originaly entered illegaly. however they are becomming legal by getting those W7's forms so im not to concerned about the ones who get that form. Also, if you can trick the irs into thinking that a fake passport is real, then i salute you that takes balls and it takes a damn good fake pass port.4) i disagree with your analogy. true as far as physical use goes, it IS only your arm that is out of commission, but left alone that arm will get infected with bacteria until the infection is so bad the arm must be amputated. The same situation applys to LA in CA where LA is the arm and CA is the body.5) ok fine, flip the roles if you want, my point remains valid.6) i dont portray them as a bad race, i portray the ones comming here illegaly as bad people. they broke the law they dont deserve any of our benefits.8) do you honestly think for one second that if an illegal immigrant kills an american that we arnt going to hold a trial? we are just going to deport them? hell no. that person will be tried and the death penalty sought out. if i go to another country and kill someone, legal or not, the same would apply to me. 9) "If you don't want me to insult your intelligence give me proof that you even have one." did you even read what you were trying to say? prove to you that i have one intelligence? i think what you ment to say was show to you that i have intelligence, the one is both un-necessary and gramaticaly incorrect.i have also spoken with hispanics, altough sometimes i dont know wether or not they are legal, im not just some guy that argues about this solely based on what other people say, i have my own life experience thank you.10) " Yeah, that's what I'm trying to tell you, and the government doesnt care. Why? because they get to keep all that extra money." if the government didnt care, then why do we deport some illegal immigrants, abviously they DO care because we ARE deporting them.11) "A proven fact by who? You are proving that you are racist by demeaning and name tagging hispanics, give me a prove of what you say and I will stop calling you one." you truely are an idiot arnt you? i never said anything bad about LEGITIMATE hispanic people. if africans started crossing our borders illegaly in mass, then i would have a problem with illegal africans. does that make me racist? no. it just means i care about upholding the law. and as for who the fact is proven from, how about... gee, i dont know, the US census? they keep track of that kind of thing so buzz off. when the hell did i say anything about the population of hispanic countries? this is about america, not peru, not cuba, not any other hispanic nation. hispanic birth rates in AMERICA are higher than all other races, is the point i was trying to drive home, but somehow you seem to mis-interpret that as hispanics everywhere in the world are reproducing faster than everyone else. stop trying to put words in my mouth to make yourself look good.12) "My lawyer cost me 7500 for 18 months ... It's better if you don't make up data like you are doing right now.And I'm sure someone could afford a lawyer like that getting paid 15 dollars an hour." really? oh wait thats right, you probly wernt on trial for MURDER. those lawyers are much more expensive, what exactly was your lawyer representing you for? as for my poverty statement, they live as such, they may make more, but they send alot of that money to their homeland where their families are, and that money never comes back to america, thus again hurting the economy. 13) "In other words, you would need two illegal immigrants making 15,000 a year to "maintain" one inmate and I can tell you that the number of illegal immigrants in this country is much higher than twice the number of inmates." really? you can? site your source. Also, about the poverty thing, what makes you think illegal immigrants get paid $15 for construction? its probly closer to $7 or maybe $8 because they are illegal and can be easily taken advantage of. a company will not pay an illegal the same amount of money as a legal citizen, its that simple. "Of course there will be illegal immigrants who commit crimes, just like citizens do. Don't try to antagonize hispanics simply becuase there are some who commit crimes." If you read my points earlier on, you would see that the number of illegals commiting crimes far outweight your average citizen.

2) " "History shows that IMMIGRANTS in general contribute to crime," " I need to say no more.3) No, a W7 doesn't give you any legal status. And you say you are not concerned about the ones with that form, but 99.8% of them have that form, and the ones that don't have it is because they don't know about it.Oh, and the IRS doesn't have any sofisticated computer system to check that a passport is real, they just take a look at it, and if it appears to be real they take it as real.4) "Left alone" I never said the problem should be left alone, but it shouldn't be stated that CA has a problem that is currently affecting L.A.5) No, your point is not valid because I didn't flip any roles, that's simply how it happens.6) I thought this point was about lowering property value and stadard of living, why did you go off course?8) Killing is a federal crime, when a federal crime is commited a trial is held out, however the death penalty cannot be given as the person is not a citizen of the country and the country has no right to kill a citizen from another (without declaring war that is) So yes, a trial would be held, they would be sentenced, and after they did their time, they would be deported.And that's the process that would be applied to you if you were illegal, if you were legal, you would be tried, the goverment from your country would get involved, embassadors would be called, a extraditation process may be filed, and all that crapDon't get me wrong, I don't think that it's right that if they kill someone they should not be killed, but that is simply not how things are carried out in reality.9) "my own life experience thank you." of course everyone has their own life experiences. Whether they are relevant, that's another story.10) No, they don't care, they just do that to lie to the people by saying "we are doing something"11) I'm not putting words in your mouth, I'm simply taking what you say and using it against you."HISPANICS ARE HAVING MORE BABIES THAN "THE REST OF US" ok? 'the rest of us' means EVERYONE who is not hispanic."You would agree that Africans, Europeans, Asians, are not hispanic, yes? Good. And you say that hispanics are having more babies than all of them, as implied by "the rest of us" if by the "rest of us" you mean only americans, then you are more ignorant than I thought, as the United States is not the only place in the world where people live.12) I may not have needed a lawyer for murder, but he also defends people who are on trial for murder.Oh, and many illegals come here with their families, they don't have anybody to send money to.13) "a company will not pay an illegal the same amount of money as a legal citizen, its that simple."Hahaha, that made me laugh. I work in a small construction company, and I know illegals there that get paid that much. True, a legal doing the same job as them would probably be getting paid around 18-20, but they still get paid a fair ammount for their work."The number of illegals commiting crimes far outweight your average citizen." That depends where you are looking at. L.A? maybe. Brooklyn? I doubt it.