God real or not?

What university is this? And more importantly, what subject does your friend teach? Intelligent design has no place in schools as it a blatant attempt by creationists to shove their views down children's throats.

Yet, if a public school wants to touch the subject of the beginning of time they have to abide by the rules and shove evolution down the throats of children, right? They can either teach evolution or they can't touch the subject of a universal beginning at all. Creationism is there so that kids have a choice as to what to embrace. *Note: The Separation of Church and State was created to prevent faith from blinding the government's judgement, not to completely turn out nation into an atheistic one.*

Evolution doesn't say anywhere that God doesn't exist. It just differs from a literal interpretation of the Bible, which is the real controversy. It is based in fact and observation. Intelligent design is not scientific and cannot be tested or observed, so it has no place in the class room.The theory of evolution has nothing to do with the existence of God.

Edited by zoloft, 23 December 2005 - 05:04 AM.

Evolution doesn't say anywhere that God doesn't exist. It just differs from a literal interpretation of the Bible, which is the real controversy. It is based in fact and observation. Intelligent design is not scientific and cannot be tested or observed, so it has no place in the class room.The theory of evolution has nothing to do with the existence of God.

And since when can macro-evolution be tested and observed? I'm not saying that evolution's a farce or that it's even a threat, just saying that it was pretty hypocritical of you to say that ID is an attempt to shove religion down the throats of children when evolution is shoved down the throats of everyone that is being educated or is making an intellectual argument.

Evolution doesn't say anywhere that God doesn't exist. It just differs from a literal interpretation of the Bible, which is the real controversy. It is based in fact and observation. Intelligent design is not scientific and cannot be tested or observed, so it has no place in the class room.The theory of evolution has nothing to do with the existence of God.

And since when can macro-evolution be tested and observed? I'm not saying that evolution's a farce or that it's even a threat, just saying that it was pretty hypocritical of you to say that ID is an attempt to shove religion down the throats of children when evolution is shoved down the throats of everyone that is being educated or is making an intellectual argument.

Macroevolution is just the sum of many microevolutionary changes. ID is popular because the scientific community has discredited creationism and it's the next best thing for people that buy into the Genesis explanation for creation.

Edited by zoloft, 23 December 2005 - 06:12 AM.

Macroevolution is just the sum of many microevolutionary changes. ID is popular because the scientific community has discredited creationism and it's the next best thing for people that buy into the Genesis explanation for creation.

Yes that's the definition, but has it ever been observed? Has a single celled organsim ever been caught in the process of evolving into a stable and functioning multi-cellular creature? ID simply states that a higher being may have set forth the creation of the universe and may have created man out of nothing or through controlled evolution. Not everyone that buys into ID is Christian.

Macroevolution is just the sum of many microevolutionary changes. ID is popular because the scientific community has discredited creationism and it's the next best thing for people that buy into the Genesis explanation for creation.

Yes that's the definition, but has it ever been observed? Has a single celled organsim ever been caught in the process of evolving into a stable and functioning multi-cellular creature? ID simply states that a higher being may have set forth the creation of the universe and may have created man out of nothing or through controlled evolution. Not everyone that buys into ID is Christian.

An overwhelming majority of the people who buy into ID are Christian. The ID movement has really been spearheaded by Christians. I'd have to do some research into what extent evolution has been observed. It's been observed in the bacteria that have evolved to be resistant to antibiotics and fruitflies. But if we start going down this route, it'll stop being a debate and quickly become a contest to see who can copy/paste scientific research that fits their view. Which wasn't really the point of the topic.

An overwhelming majority of the people who buy into ID are Christian. The ID movement has really been spearheaded by Christians. I'd have to do some research into what extent evolution has been observed. It's been observed in the bacteria that have evolved to be resistant to antibiotics and fruitflies. But if we start going down this route, it'll stop being a debate and quickly become a contest to see who can copy/paste scientific research that fits their view. Which wasn't really the point of the topic.

Yeap, adaptation and that's not enough to treat it as you and a majority of the scientific community are. When the process of macro evolution can be observed and recreated, it is no longer a theory and can therefore be treated as you are treating it now, but that still leaves how possible it is on a world of molten lava. When taking the laws of scientific investigation into consideration, evolution hasn't made too much progress. Theories should be taught in school, as they conduce to the progression of intelligence, but theories should not be taught as fact as they are simply possible models of the Earth in the scientific mindset. Evolution is being treated as fact and is being shoved down the throats of children in public schools everywhere. It was hypocritical of you to say that ID was an attempt to force religion into schools and the minds of students even though you condone a mere theory being treated as fact and being forced into the minds of kids and schools. This was my original point and I'm hoping you can understand my poorly organized wall of text.

Edited by kemutsemu, 23 December 2005 - 08:26 AM.

I don't condone evolution being taught as fact. It's a theory. I haven't debated that. It's taught in science class because it is best scientific theory availible. Intelligent Design has no place in public schools because it not scientific in nature. It is not scientific to conclude that a higher being is responsible for life because you can't explain what happens in nature. It can't be tested in labs or in the field. We're now going in circles.My question to you now is whether or not you see ID as having religious/creationist [since apparently they are mutually exlcusive] overtones.

Edited by zoloft, 23 December 2005 - 08:42 AM.

I don't condone evolution being taught as fact. It's a theory. I haven't debated that. It's taught in science class because it is best scientific theory availible. Intelligent Design has no place in public schools because it not scientific in nature. It is not scientific to conclude that a higher being is responsible because you can't explain what happens in nature. It can't be tested in labs or in the field. We're now going in circles.My question to you is whether or not you see ID as having religious/creationist overtones.

1.) It's unscientific to suggest that a higher being set something into action *The big bang* and may have used a fine-tuned tool * Controlled evolution* to bring about our existance? 2.) The macro-evolution that's being taught in schools cannot be observed nor can it be recreated (Nor can the big bang, which is also regarded as fact within the scientific and atheist community). 3.) A Greek philosopher (Take a guess at which one) came across the thought that there had to have been a single higher being that created the universe. This thought suggests about as much as ID does.

Edited by kemutsemu, 23 December 2005 - 09:01 AM.

I have come to believe there is no God.When I was younger, I was raised by my Presbyterian great great aunt. She was a wonderful woman. Giving, caring, devout in her beliefs, healthy, and happy. Then suddenly (yet expectedly) she died of cancer at the age of 94. She hadn't told anyone, except for myself and that was a few hours before she passed away. Now, the congregation of the church had also been a very big influence in my life. They had always been open and accepting of me... until my great great aunt passed away. After that happened, the whole situation changed. My great aunt had left me $20,000. This isn't that large of a sum of money, if you consider it. It was supposed to get me through college, or at least help.Well, a few of my family members decided that I didn't deserve the money. My immediate family isn't that great, you see. My father was abusive, my mother divorced my father after cheating on him with several men, and while my father makes a good $30 an hour it was nothing compared to the income of the rest of the family. I myself am left completely unable to work due to severe fibromyalgia, seizures, and blackouts. Because of these factors, I was deemed trash by the rest of the family. I was simply unaware of it because of my great great aunt's social status and the fact everyone believed she was rich.Jealous of the inheritance and the fact it had gone to "a peice of trash" like me, I was exiled from the church. A few members had nothing but kind words for me, but because my extended family populated a little over 130 members of the church the rest had nothing but foul words for me.As for the money... I never managed to finish college. I nearly finished a semister, but due to my attendance being ruined by my father who refused to drop me off at college (a few cities away) on his way to work on several occasion I failed all of my courses even though my grades were outstanding. Also, much of the money went to my mother whom was going to lose her apartment because I couldn't allow my siblings to go homeless due to her incompetance.Because of these factors, and not just this instance but other factors I mentioned such as my parents, my disabilities, and a few other unfortunate events I find myself very unable to believe in a "God", much less that he could care about me. Selfish? Probably. Yes, I'm probably very selfish for thinking such. But I've gone through a lot of things in my life. I used to be so poor as to raid the 7-Eleven dumpster for food because my father refused to help me at all, even though he could have easily gotten me help from his company as I'm very skilled in CAD drafting and they did the same for him when he was younger than I am now. I'm not pleased with my past at all, other than my days of living with my great great aunt when I was innocent.Now, I'm nearly 24 with a wife and daughter that I love dearly. But... I can't find myself capable of believing in a God that would allow such things to take place. People argue over intelligent design verses evolution constantly, as if one side will cave in and believe the other. You can do such things all you want, but what about the more visable and current facts? My life isn't the only one that's been and still is absolute Hell. People in general do to those less fortunate what my own family did to me. The economy in the US, despite our governments efforts to prove otherwise, is absolute crap. Whole countries are at war with one another. Supposed "acts of God" destroy entire cities, states, and countries. And I'm expected to believe that there is a "God"? That a few acts from the kind here and there solve all the world's problems through Him?I think it's high time we quit bickering over if there's a God or not. I think it's time that we all work together for once and let idiotic things like religion fade into the recesses of our minds. For thousands of years, people have been slain and countries have gone to war simply because of having a different religion. I don't see how anyone regardless of having a logical, scientific, experienced, or religious mind can just sit there and just not do anything...Anyway, I went off topic and I apologize. I may have also said too much. My point is I personally find myself unable to believe in God. It's not just through selfish reasoning, though. It's also strengthened by the state the world is in today.

I have come to believe there is no God.When I was younger, I was raised by my Presbyterian great great aunt. She was a wonderful woman. Giving, caring, devout in her beliefs, healthy, and happy. Then suddenly (yet expectedly) she died of cancer at the age of 94. She hadn't told anyone, except for myself and that was a few hours before she passed away. Now, the congregation of the church had also been a very big influence in my life. They had always been open and accepting of me... until my great great aunt passed away. After that happened, the whole situation changed. *Snip-Snip-Snip-Snip-Snip-Snip-Snip-Snip-Snip-Snip-Snip-Snip-Snip-Snip-Snip-Snip-Snip-Snip-Snip-Snip-Snip*Anyway, I went off topic and I apologize. I may have also said too much. My point is I personally find myself unable to believe in God. It's not just through selfish reasoning, though. It's also strengthened by the state the world is in today.

Off topic: Crappy life, but it's no excuse *Sorry*. Life and all it's pleasures come at a price, no? Should one remember the lesson in the book of Amos, all immorality is deserving of divine retribution. We see this in practice in every second of our life. Also, the sins of the father are cast upon the son, but in this case the father has cast aside his punishment *His son*. Your father and the others that cast you aside will be dealt something that they can't easily run away from. And from the sound of it, your life until your adulthood was a trial, but it sounds like you failed. On Topic: The reason the world is in it's current state is because of what it's done to itself. While the innocent can be immoral, once their better judgement has arrived so will their punishment.

Edited by kemutsemu, 23 December 2005 - 09:20 AM.

I don't condone evolution being taught as fact. It's a theory. I haven't debated that. It's taught in science class because it is best scientific theory availible. Intelligent Design has no place in public schools because it not scientific in nature. It is not scientific to conclude that a higher being is responsible because you can't explain what happens in nature. It can't be tested in labs or in the field. We're now going in circles.My question to you is whether or not you see ID as having religious/creationist overtones.

1.) It's unscientific to suggest that a higher being set something into action *The big bang* and may have used a fine-tuned tool * Controled evolution* to bring about our existance? 2.) The macro-evolution that's being taught in schools cannot be observed nor can it be recreated (Nor can the big bang, which is also regarded as fact within the scientific and atheist community). 3.) A Greek philosopher (Take a guess at which one) came across the thought that there had to have been a single higher being that created the universe. This thought suggests about as much as ID does.

1) Within a public classroom, yes. Especially since the definition of a higher being is nebulous at best and that's being incredibly generous2) Rather than steal other people's words, I'll just link 29+ Evidences for macroevolution. 3) Greek philosophers, such as Aristotle, aren't the basis for the Intelligent Design movement.This has been fun, but we've derailed this topic enough. Send me a PM and we can toss around contentious statements.

Off topic: Crappy life, but it's no excuse *Sorry*. Life and all it's pleasures come at a price, no? Should one remember the lesson in the book of Amos, all immorality is deserving of divine retribution. We see this in practice in every second of our life. Also, the sins of the father are cast upon the son, but in this case the father has cast aside his punishment *His son*. Your father and the others that cast you aside will be dealt something that they can't easily run away from. From the sound of it, your life until your adulthood was a trial, but it sounds like you failed. On Topic: The reason the world is in it's current state is because of what it's done to itself. While the innocent can be immoral, once their better judgement has arrived so will their punishment.

Off Topic: ...So you're telling me God would punish the innocent? And you believe this is correct? No... That's no trial. The very fact you would suggest such is very open to ridicule. It serves no purpose.On Topic: That does not explain the people who've been forced to pay for others injustices simply because they're living in the wrong place.In conclusion, you've completely dodged everything I've said. It's babble. Your New Testament teaches that God is loving and all sins are to be forgiven, that the meek shall inherit the Earth. Yet, since I've mentioned this, I'm sure something will simply come up validating your response with the validity of the New Testament.

yes hes real you idiot!

Oh yes, very smart. I see the light now, oh enlightened one. How could I have ever been mistaken... But just for the sake of my own enlightenment, if you're truely Christian why would you call someone an idiot? That doesn't seem very nice.

Off Topic: ...So you're telling me God would punish the innocent? And you believe this is correct? No... That's no trial. The very fact you would suggest such is very open to ridicule. It serves no purpose.On Topic: That does not explain the people who've been forced to pay for others injustices simply because they're living in the wrong place.In conclusion, you've completely dodged everything I've said. It's babble. Your New Testament teaches that God is loving and all sins are to be forgiven, that the meek shall inherit the Earth. Yet, since I've mentioned this, I'm sure something will simply come up validating your response with the validity of the New Testament.

Off topic: God bends the faithful to test their faith. You were faithful and your trial came early. On Topic: No it doesn't. But those who suffer and truly want to prosper and end their own suffering tend to make an effort and succeed, right? There wasn't anything to dodge. You said your life sucked, and stated your reasons. I agreed that you life sucked and said it wasn't an excuse, you yourself said your reasons were selfish and I stated a book of scripture that gave an explanation to the suffering of New Orleans and the like. You've said nothing that tests the validity of the New and Old Testament so there's nothing for me to give a rebuttal to.

Hi I'm BlueSearaphimI'm not calling myself an expert or any thing but I have studied and contemplated extensively at my own and other religions.And it come to my conclusion that religion is essentially a way to find purpose and mean from live. It also teachs us what is good and bad. Whats weird and ironic about christianty is that they teach that controlled by our animal instincts is bad (why do you think the church forbids pre-mariatal sex, it because it an animal instinct). The church teaches not to hurt God's living creatures but at the same time teahes that we must be better that them. I'm sorry kinda went of track I just wanted to say that.Any way does God exist I say "I truely don't know" (Lame) I would like to believe their is a God but deep down in side I have some doubts. When ever something good or bad happen I thank God or as why God. But there is bit of emptiness in my worlds.Someone once told me "There is a God maybe not a all knowing or power thing, But it certian that what ever cause the big bang must of been God". This is kinda hard to explain but if you think about it it pretty true.

Edited by BlueSeraphim, 23 December 2005 - 10:22 AM.

Off topic: God bends the faithful to test their faith. You were faithful and your trial came early.

However, simply because I no longer believe in God does not mean I "failed" anything. If God does exist and he is omnipotant, therefore he would know not only was I not ready but I was one of the people I as a Christian was obligated to help.

On Topic: No it doesn't. But those who suffer and truly want to prosper and end their own suffering tend to make an effort and succeed, right?

So, those incapable and crying for help are left with none. Impeccable judgement on God's beahalf. Let's kill off the few people and ruin their way of life, regardless of if they're guilty of sin or not.

There wasn't anything to dodge. You said your life sucked, and stated your reasons. I agreed that you life sucked and said it wasn't an excuse, you yourself said your reasons were selfish and I stated a book of scripture that gave an explanation to the suffering of New Orleans and the like. You've said nothing that tests the validity of the New and Old Testament so there's nothing for me to give a rebuttal to.

No, it tests everything in the Bible. Selfish or not, the fact of the matter is in my absolute darkest hours "God" was not there. His own people, my own people, abandoned me. To be quite honest, they left me for dead. If there was truely a God, do you not think someone would have been "moved" to help me? Perhaps even council me on my plan of action to make it through? Everyone in the church, dare I say everyone in the town knew about it.The bible is a double edged sword. The Old Testament states that God is vengeful, that he has no concern for the guilty or innocent. If most of the world displeases him, then everyone in the world will pay. It speaks of rules and sacrifices that should be made to God, such as animals and other offerings. Some of the things are even barbaric in nature.However, in the New Testament suddenly God is a gracious diety, a protector of the weak and innocent. Jesus is born and heals the suffering. He then dies so that all men can be forgiven for their sins as long as they believe in Him.Two completely different faces of God, would you not agree?As for what I said that makes this argument realavent, that should give you "reason to give rebuttal" as you put it, I mentioned that all sins will be forgiven to those who believe in Him in my last post. It also says that judgement will come to sinners in death. Now, I'm no Bible thumper and I never have been nd I'm especially not one now. Memorizing the points the Bible was getting across seemed more important that remembering a verses of mediocre importance to the big picture. However, this derails your statment about divine justice, as that was an Old Testiment concept.Also, again I mention why a kind and giving God would force others to suffer? Moreso, why would this God allow holy wars such as the Crusades to take place? Christians and Catholics alike slaughtering non-believers simple because of a difference in beliefs.Don't you think it's time to end that sort of behaviour? Instead of justifying everything with "Oh, it was an act of God. He must be testing them... tra la la la la", Christians and non-Christians alike should be willing to help others simply because they need it. There are no more "tests". In fact, I'll even go as far to say if it IS indeed a test he'd be testing those capable of helping rather than the victims of such events.It is my belief that there is no God, as I said before. This will not change no matter how much scripture you quote or what logic you use. It's also fairly unGodly to simply toss off everything as "Your life sucked. So what?" as it is, which I'd assume to be somewhat hypocritical from a belief system that supposedly has the goal of maintaining sympathy, caring, helpfulness, and belief in God.Rather, why can't Christians simply come to the conclusion that some people will not accept their God. Just like not everyone will accept Allah, not everyone will become pagan, and not everyone will follow The Goddess. Debates are futile. It's best to do things by way of the ABSOLUTE BASIS OF ALL RELIGIONS. Which is thusly; There may or may not be a higher power. But regardless of that fact, one should help your fellow man anyway you can if they need it, live a moral life, and do the "right thing".

Edited by EncodedFATE, 23 December 2005 - 11:11 AM.

I believe in the existence of some higher power, whether you want to call Him/Her/It God, Allah, Fate, or anything else. For the purposes of my opinion, however, I'll go with "God". I believe that God, while He has done things to suggest He is nothing more than a mean kid with a magnifying glass, is a kind and loving God. I also believe that God gave us the ability to choose our own destinies. He didn't set us a path at birth, but He gave us an infinite number of different paths to take in life. Also, I believe that, while God does everything and lets things happen for a reason. I may not agree with the reasons, I may not even like the reasons, but there is a reason. However, I believe that God mostly leaves us to our own devices, and intervenes when we....really screw things up. I don't think we've screwed things up sufficiently to get the Man Upstairs to intervene any time recently. He created us, and He's letting us do things our own way. It's just up to us to...not say and do things that make us look like jackasses and morons.

God is so real. It is only you can make him real in your heart. Man couldn't have just evolved from some bacteria. I mean, when we reproduce, it there bacteria needed? my point is that God was... God is.... and God will be forever.... [Why do you think U.S.A. is so prosperous. because their motto is "In God We Trust" God is keeping U.S.A. and it because they trust and believe in him!!

God is so real. It is only you can make him real in your heart. Man couldn't have just evolved from some bacteria. I mean, when we reproduce, it there bacteria needed? my point is that God was... God is.... and God will be forever.... [Why do you think U.S.A. is so prosperous. because their motto is "In God We Trust" God is keeping U.S.A. and it because they trust and believe in him!!

Actually, when a child is born vaginal birth is prefered due to yeast in the birthing canal which raises the baby's immune system. And there is scientific evidence that the world is over a million years old as well as proof that man (and all other life forms) evolved from bacteria.As for the USA being prosperous... err... Sorry to say, but most American's aren't. Not in the least. The only reason we appear that way is because the wealthy kick the poor into small crappy areas. As for the Government being successful, it only appears that way due to the US shoving it's nose in other countries business. It also stole most of it's land from the peaceful Native Americans, as well as fighting other countries for it.However, two countries that ARE prosperous are Japan and Canada. When do you see God appearing in their mottos? Better yet, Canada "poverty" level is equivalent to the United States' "middle-class".

Edited by EncodedFATE, 24 December 2005 - 03:18 AM.

Yet, Americans conquered the Natives in God's name. Of course America is falling short, simply because they are taking god out of everything. first schools, then the white house. I hear they are trying to take it off the money. There is wven this group who is trying to get rid of God in the United States. That is why America is falling short. I'm not taking down on my religion, but it is based on what is right and Americans know who they serve if they don't obey then they get punished. And about the bacteria. have you ever heard of anyhting called human error. The scientists know too much for their own good. first we came from monkeys, then from bacteria. Next thing you hear is that we came from air and milk. Science has reached out beyond the wits of man and God beyond all. According to statistics, the Americans are the wealthiest ( not to take sides, just out of my references). So the big question is,"Who's god is the true God?' Well the records in the bible show when all those other Gods you hear about in Asia came into being. Therefore, due to history, God (Christianity: Pentacostal), is the only god and is real. There may be others who are wealthy and prosperous, but my bible says those type of people lay up for his people (which is self explanitory). So......Amen

Blind faith is truely a deadly and disturbing thing. Way to prove me right.

Yet, Americans conquered the Natives in God's name. Of course America is falling short, simply because they are taking god out of everything. first schools, then the white house. I hear they are trying to take it off the money. There is wven this group who is trying to get rid of God in the United States. That is why America is falling short. I'm not taking down on my religion, but it is based on what is right and Americans know who they serve if they don't obey then they get punished. And about the bacteria. have you ever heard of anyhting called human error. The scientists know too much for their own good. first we came from monkeys, then from bacteria. Next thing you hear is that we came from air and milk. Science has reached out beyond the wits of man and God beyond all. According to statistics, the Americans are the wealthiest ( not to take sides, just out of my references). So the big question is,"Who's god is the true God?' Well the records in the bible show when all those other Gods you hear about in Asia came into being. Therefore, due to history, God (Christianity: Pentacostal), is the only god and is real. There may be others who are wealthy and prosperous, but my bible says those type of people lay up for his people (which is self explanitory). So......Amen

America is ranked 4th in terms of gross domestic product per capita, according to the United Nations Human Development Index. We aren't the wealthiest.

Yet, Americans conquered the Natives in God's name. Of course America is falling short, simply because they are taking god out of everything. first schools, then the white house. I hear they are trying to take it off the money. There is wven this group who is trying to get rid of God in the United States. That is why America is falling short. I'm not taking down on my religion, but it is based on what is right and Americans know who they serve if they don't obey then they get punished. And about the bacteria. have you ever heard of anyhting called human error. The scientists know too much for their own good. first we came from monkeys, then from bacteria. Next thing you hear is that we came from air and milk. Science has reached out beyond the wits of man and God beyond all. According to statistics, the Americans are the wealthiest ( not to take sides, just out of my references). So the big question is,"Who's god is the true God?' Well the records in the bible show when all those other Gods you hear about in Asia came into being. Therefore, due to history, God (Christianity: Pentacostal), is the only god and is real. There may be others who are wealthy and prosperous, but my bible says those type of people lay up for his people (which is self explanitory). So......Amen

....Do you listen to yourself? By Thor's......hammer, screwdriver, and crescent wrench, but you are illogical. America sucks because the Republicans try to involve religion in politics. I'm sorry if that offends any Republic-Ok, I'm not sorry if it does. However, last I checked Republicans were on the right side of the political spectrum, and I've never heard of the "religious left". There's no right or wrong God, and no right or wrong religion. No religion's gotten it right yet, and all religions that answer to the Vatican are nowhere close to it. Take homosexuality for example. I've heard Catholics say that homosexuality is bad because it's "unnatural". However, this implies that God f--ked up. According to Catholic doctrine, God is infallible. This means He can't f--k up. God created everything, and that includes homosexuality. If He didn't want it to exist, He never would have let it exist in the first place. Also, America's not the wealthiest country, as zoloft said. Granted, most Americans like to think they're the wealthiest, but that's because we make the Ancient Romans look like a civilization of Gandhis and Mother Teresas. And, to use the Bible as a historical text is....well, it's moronic. The Bible is a religious text, and nothing more. I accept it as the written Word of God, but it was written by humans, and humans, unlike God, are totally capable of f--king up, and do so on a daily basis.

I don't believe in God, but I'm afraid of him.

see i do beleve god exists but what i think is that he simple dosnt care about us, there are millions of other planets that he would be more interested in so y would he care about any1 that is individual or even in a group.