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God real or not?

Started by Guest_stubblehamster , Feb 15 2005 12:22 AM

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#2901 Guest_zoloft

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 01:43 AM

sorry I must have confuse you some were What I was trying to say is that God can commit act of evil as the definition stated being destructive, inhumane, or wicked but he only have done this toward those he deemed wicked like the city Sodom and Gomorrah thus why he wipe them out, another example is when moses ask pharoh to let his people go and every time he refuse God would send an destructive, inhumane, or wicked plage., but if you read the story of Job the devil Ask that God to case great evil toward Job to see if he will curse him in the face, But God refused, saying that he can't cause evil to those he deem rightoues or good. Thus showing he's not biapolor... To make it simple for you to understand ....When a child misbehave the parent punish the child for being bad (causing evil toward the child) but when the child is good the parent reward the child for being good (thus not causing evil toward the child because he/she was good). God work in a simaler manner be wicked and don't follow his commends bad things will happen but do the opposite good this will happen... but keep this in mind this was according to the biblical times as it mention in revealtion God had remove his hands from the world and let it chose it own path (like a child going of to college and chosing his/her own life A. either follower their own choice or B. follow the instruction that the parent give them) .... Sorry if I made it sound contridictory in my earlier statements if I'm still confusing you keep posting till I can give you a non-confusing satified answerOfftopic@Jon Kim- your an idiot

Two wrongs don't make a right. I appreciate your assumption that I'm a retard and need you to condescend.
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#2902 Guest_requIEMrx

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 02:14 AM

to all those God haters out there ive got something to ask you guys.if a supreme being doesnt exist then ask yourself why are we here?how did we come into existence?what is the chemical science to evolution?evolution has always been proven wrong, though creation has never been proven wrong. have you read "angels and demons" by dan brown? the truth is when 2 photons (pure energy) are charged at each other then this "creates" something out of nothing, proving the scientific rule of matter incorrect.so ask yourself if there is no God then why do we exist, where do we go when we die, do we just lose our life and our "soul", to those non believers out there i put quotes, does nothing happen after that?you are influenced by modern society, in medieval times, who didn't believe in God, besides those pesky asians and american indians and africans, no offense, im asian myself, im not trying to be racist, this is the sole truth.btw gandamds God isn't evil, do you think eliminating evil is evil? most people would think elimination and eradication of all those evil would be a good thing, God can't be evil because he eliminates evil and tries to prevent evil, evil is created by peoples and the angels freewill that God also created, so think about what you say read the passage of Sodom and Gommorah again. btw the word sodomy (to have sexual intercourse with animals, gross...) comes from Sodom. freewill is what led to Lucifers change of heart and Lucifer, now called Satan (accuser), brought sin into the world. so think about this when you go to sleep.that's something to think about eh?God rocks your socks!!!

Edited by requIEMrx, 10 January 2006 - 02:22 AM.

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#2903 -Wade-

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 05:38 AM

btw gandamds God isn't evil, do you think eliminating evil is evil? most people would think elimination and eradication of all those evil would be a good thing, God can't be evil because he eliminates evil and tries to prevent evil, evil is created by peoples and the angels freewill that God also created, so think about what you say read the passage of Sodom and Gommorah again. btw the word sodomy (to have sexual intercourse with animals, gross...) comes from Sodom. freewill is what led to Lucifers change of heart and Lucifer, now called Satan (accuser), brought sin into the world. so think about this when you go to sleep.that's something to think about eh?God rocks your socks!!!

ummm I never said he was evil, Man I wish people like you at least attemp to read the post before you talk or writing to me (because in the end your just stating how stupid you really are), One I said he capable of commiting evil, in the sense that the definition of evil stated being destructive, inhumane, or wicked often refer to someone dieing or put to death as end result toward something or person. this does not mean the person has to be evil to be evil, example i killed your mother... what the my punishment, what the wicked, destructive, inhumane, punishment you can think of.... hmmm oh death sounds like our answer for wy wicked deeds but that would make you evil thus you must die for killing me and so ....see even if you did punish me with the penety of death that does not make you as a person evil because you did evil toward another person... it often the reason that make the person evil, if the person who just go around killing people moms yes he's evil, but if a person put that person to death he not evil he a good guy even he commited evil..... so sleep on that stupid fool.Ps don't you ever tell me what to sleep on, second read a person entire post before you go out sound like a fool stupid noob third don't you ever spell my name wrong again and address to me with your stupidity again, you stupid fool.... :rant:

Edited by The Foo Foo bunny Rriders, 10 January 2006 - 06:06 AM.

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"A boy has the right to dream. There are endless possibilities stretched out before him. What awaits him down the path, he will then have to choose. The boy doesn't always know. At some point, the boy then becomes an adult, and learns what he was able to become. Joy and sadness forever will accompany this. He is confronted with a choice. When this happens, does he bid his past farewell in his heart? Once a boy becomes an adult, he can no longer go back to being a boy. The boy is now a man. Only one thing can be said. A boy has the right to dream. For those endless possibilities are stretched out before him. We must remember. All men were once boys."

#2904 TM24

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 05:59 AM

mettax catholic christianity is totally wrong because they worship mary, mother of jesus, this is disobeying one of the ten commandments, thou shall worship me and only me. so if ive reached you, give up catholicism and become a presbytarian

Except you know, we don't actaully worship her, we jsut put some more emphasis on her and la la virgin guadelupe than other religions. So nice try, stick to your religion and he'll stick to his
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#2905 Guest_zoloft

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 06:38 AM

Man, I'm done with this thread. It's gone from a lopsided discussion to arrogant diatribes and doesn't show any sign of getting better.
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#2906 Guest_ferr

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 04:33 PM

I've never really liked the Problem Of Evil argument very much, I was just giving it as an example of what many believe as being contradictory to God's existence. I feel that "evil" is subjective in the same sense that Socrates once spoke of, "What is holy and why is it holy, are holy things holy because God treats them as being holy, and simply based on that reason alone. If God did not treat them as holy then would something else be holy instead?"The first response to my post did mention something that reminded me of something, the belief that God granted us "choice" to commit evil. But the part where my thinking came in was, if God is omniscient, then God knows of our choices before our existence.. God knows 80 years beforehand whether we will mow the lawn on a Saturday afternoon or not, and he also knows if we plan to commit what we consider to be crimes. With this lack of free will, shouldn't it be considered that all "evil" outcomes are committed by God indirectly, in almost the same sense that a parent should be held responsible for a child acquiring a gun in the house and killing a person on accident, only difference is the parent would know beforehand that their child would commit this act.My final line is that "evil" is subjective, imo, but what do you think?

Edited by ferr, 10 January 2006 - 04:34 PM.

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#2907 Guest_Locue

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 05:21 PM

I'll invite myself in to this lovely discussion that has now reached 217 pages without coming to any sort of conclusions and without proving any facts but more importantly giving me endless hours of entertainment.

... the belief that God granted us "choice" to commit evil.

Personally I believe he, she, the, it granted us the choice of a free will, but it also depends on which God you mean, because the Old Testament God was a real ***** (do remember that a human ***** can be both male and female) and wouldn't allow any sort of free will (hence no option to be bad really) and the New Testament was nice and cuddly-wuddly (hence a lot of options to be anything, as long as you could regret it if you did a bad thing).

But the part where my thinking came in was, if God is omniscient, then God knows of our choices before our existence.. God knows 80 years beforehand whether we will mow the lawn on a Saturday afternoon or not, and he also knows if we plan to commit what we consider to be crimes.

More importantly; God will know the exact time of date and the exact stroke (no upcoming pun intended) of the clock we will engage in sexual intercourse! That's sexual harassment, God. I'm getting a restrainment order and it don't matter how hot you are, oh Heavenly one.

With this lack of free will, shouldn't it be considered that all "evil" outcomes are committed by God indirectly, in almost the same sense that a parent should be held responsible for a child acquiring a gun in the house and killing a person on accident, only difference is the parent would know beforehand that their child would commit this act.

Dude, go public with that theory. Media isn't the cause of violence! God is! Freaking awesome!

My final line is that "evil" is subjective, imo, but what do you think?

There is no evil, no good, no right and no wrong. There's one the grave matter of who will mow the freaking lawn on Saturday.

Edited by Locue, 10 January 2006 - 05:21 PM.

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#2908 Guest_saxgirl_ar

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 06:59 PM

I definitely believe in God.1. The Big Bang Theory: I'm not saying things did not happen this way. But if they did, someone (God) had to start it up. This may have been God's way of creating the universe. The Bible says, "In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth." Genesis 1:1 It does not tell how he created it.2. Evolution: Evolution by definition is just a mass change in a species over time. This could mean adaptation, or something as simple as everyone developing the ability to roll their tongues. By definition, evolution exists, but humans did NOT evolve from apes. Humans are simply too intricate to have spontaneously "evolved" from apes. Even Darwin believed this eventually.3. Many people have said that "if God exists, why does he make people suffer pain and torment?" God allows certain things to happen to us, knowing that it will help us to become stronger, or to find our faith. He does this because he loves us. It's the same as when a parent watches their child fall when they are just learning to walk. The parent is there to protect you if you get hurt, but knows that they cannot hold your hand all the time if they expect you to walk. God works the same way. That's why He is known and the Father.4. I have experience in this area. This past summer, I had major nerve problems in my right arm (Note: I'm right-handed.) I was growing ganglion cysts all over my wrist, and my arm would twitch for hours at a time. Most of the time, I could not even use my arm or hand. I went to multiple doctors, orthopedists, neurologists, and surgeons, had 6 MRI's, and two Nerve Conduction Studies Tests to try to find out what was wrong with me. No one knew. One Sunday, I woke up and I had no movement in my arm. It was also extremely swollen. It was so bad that my mom had to even help me wash my hair. Later, as we were going to church, it seemed like everything was going against us and trying to keep us out of church. We were already running late, but we did not speed, and we got there early (my church is an hour away.) My pastor had not seen me that day, but the entire sermon was about healing and everything my pastor said seemed directed toward me. As he preached, the swelling quickly left my arm and I regained use in it. I have had no problems with it since. The doctors have called my back into their offices several times since to check for problems, but the find none. The only explanation they have ever found is that God healed me when no one else could.Overall, no one is supposed to understand God. When we go before Him for judgement, it will be explained to us. Just know that God loves all of us and does have a plan, even though we sometimes question it.
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#2909 Guest_Repo_Man

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 07:22 PM

Wow. How could a human even achieve half-deity? I read the past few posts and was completely flabbergasted by even the amused notions put forth. Let me try this: God is either God or not. There is no middle ground. The idea of Godhood is nothing more than something you hold dear and serve. You cater to it and it's supposed ideas. A God is not always a person. A god can be money, or drugs. If you live for those things they become your gods.. You start to serve them. You look for more ways to get more and more of them. If sex is the greatest thing to you, then it is your god. A god dosent have to have power to be your god. You just have to have a kind of faith in whatever it is you are serving.Locue: You said the God of the Bible was a "*****" who alowed no freewill whatsoever. Tell me, on what do you base this opinion? The God written of in the bible is the God of the Jews and Christians. He created everything and everyone as it claims. He breathed life into man, making him a living soul (note the word soul is the same as animal in the language it was written.) He then chose to disobey God and partake in sin (basically breaking the law.) And so, man was cast out of heaven on earth and doomed for his earthly body to die because it came out of line with what God breathed into it. Is not this freewill?When you were a child, how did you learn that hot things burned? Your parents told you. But as a child did you not still get burnt?You also mention the God of the new testament as being "cuddly-wuddly." Did you not know they are the same God? "Before Abraham was I Am" "I Am that I Am, tell them I Am sent you." If you know the Bible you know exactly what I am talking about. The first is Y'shua (Jesus) Talking to the religious order of the day. The second is God talking to Moses. The God who gave the law, the same law that brings death to the lawless and mercy to the orphan and widow is the same God who gave the sermon on the mount. Jesus is the great I Am. And this God who came down from heaven to be born as a man, and to sin not, took the punishment of sin upon himself on the cross so that every single humanbeing could be found innocent in the law. "By the sin of one many were condemned, by the righteousness of one many are saved."The fact of the matter is this: We have ALL sinned and fallen short of the glory that God has called us to. Men were created to be the sons of God himself. And it's because of the freewill he gave to us we sinned. The child touched the stove so to speak. One thing I ask you to remember is that God breathed into man, giving him a spirit. Your spirit is eternal, and will never perish. What God has given in this he will not take away. You can choose to abide with Him, or without Him. There is not, and never will be the middle ground. There will never be a half-god, so to speak. It's only by the grace of God will you be able to live with him, and not go to Hell. And it's for your sake that he was beaten, whipped, stabbed, the hair ripped from him, spit on, mocked, his flesh torn from him, cursed, and shamed. "Behold I set before life and death. Choose life."
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#2910 Guest_Repo_Man

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Posted 10 January 2006 - 08:20 PM

I've never really liked the Problem Of Evil argument very much, I was just giving it as an example of what many believe as being contradictory to God's existence. I feel that "evil" is subjective in the same sense that Socrates once spoke of, "What is holy and why is it holy, are holy things holy because God treats them as being holy, and simply based on that reason alone. If God did not treat them as holy then would something else be holy instead?"The first response to my post did mention something that reminded me of something, the belief that God granted us "choice" to commit evil. But the part where my thinking came in was, if God is omniscient, then God knows of our choices before our existence.. God knows 80 years beforehand whether we will mow the lawn on a Saturday afternoon or not, and he also knows if we plan to commit what we consider to be crimes. With this lack of free will, shouldn't it be considered that all "evil" outcomes are committed by God indirectly, in almost the same sense that a parent should be held responsible for a child acquiring a gun in the house and killing a person on accident, only difference is the parent would know beforehand that their child would commit this act.My final line is that "evil" is subjective, imo, but what do you think?

A child is but a child who will do as it bids. If the child knows the danger of the gun, and still took it and slew someone, is it really an accident? A child does things without thinking of the ramifications of his/her actions and such is innocent. The guilt only lays in the fact that the parent may not of made clear the danger of the gun. But, the danger should of been clear to the child as he was only drawn to it as he saw on the television/movie people using them to slay their enemy. Now, with this in mind, God did warn the child of the danger of sin. In Eden, did he not say "If you eat of this fruit you shall surely die."? Knowledge of good and evil is a weighty thing. Yet we all have it. And we either act upon the knowledge of good, or the knowledge of evil. If a parent gives his child all the love and warnings in the world, yet the child still becomes a serial killer, are the parents to blame?
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#2911 Guest_chenergy

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Posted 11 January 2006 - 12:45 AM

Topics like this never end. The concept of believing in a god(s) has nothing to do with a person's intelligence, as has been often used to insult those who worship a god, nor faith, as has been used to insult those who do not worship a god. It has to do with one's perception of reality.Identifying one's perception of reality comes before everything else, before arguments about the validity of the Bible, evolution, the beginning of the world, life after death, and anything that has thus-far been argued by both sides. A person's view on life primarily comes from environment and the world in which one lives. If a person is raised within a Christian family and society, such an environment with inevitably influence his or her take on Christianity. If a person is raised in a Hindu family and society, the same social influences affect his or her psyche. The same thing occurs in all other religious or non-religious environments.A secondary factor involves the events in one's life. Unexplainable occurances or coincidences cause people to inherently look toward an explanation, be it a supernatural influence or intervention. Such as what has been previously stated, miraculous recoveries, unable to be explained by science, may draw a person to conclude that something of a religious context must have occured, since nothing else can logically prove what happened. It all depends on a final factor.This final factor is what one decides to believe. Personally, I require physical evidence before I make an opinionated statement. Since I have none proving nor disproving the existance of god, I can only rely on the evidence that I do have, which supports evolution etc. However, I could be totally wrong and I could be going to hell for it, but hopefully if that is the case, I hope not to be punished so severely for not giving into an idea without formal evidence. If I were told that Zeus would strike me down if I didn't kill my first-born son (for example), would I be willing to do so? Replace "Zeus" with "god" or anything analogous, and I hope people could understand my skepticism.I know that nobody here can definitively state that religion is the absolute and ultimate truth, since nobody in existence today saw god create the universe except for a few religious fanatics, who are already biased in opinion anyway. They only believe they saw god in one way or another. Many people rely on their religious texts to find the answers, which is not particularly bad, but lacks factual evidence. Perhaps a being created the universe, perhaps it was spontaneous. It all revolves around what a person chooses to believe and what their senses tell them is real. What I find lacking on either side is tolerance of another's beliefs. So someone believes in god? Ok. So someone does not believe in god? Ok. People shouldn't take it as a personal attack, simply an expression of opinion. And people sure as hell should not force others to conform with them.
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#2912 Guest_SENOR NACHO

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Posted 11 January 2006 - 01:14 AM

for those of you who doubt god for making evil, god may not think of it as evil. what people think of as inhumane and cruel may not be true for it is merely a human thought. to vegetarian, killing animals is wrong, but to a hawk, killing animals is a way to survive. god created things that cause people to doubt him, but maybe he wants to be doubted. since god is a superior being, not only does he not want anything for us, he wants us to doubt him so that we do not thank him, for that would be wrong. we are gods people, and those of us who supposedly "sin" by killing people are not doing an acutal sin. a man kills someone and is outcast by all people because of something they beleive to be wrong, but what has he really done exept free the soul of the person he killed. in reincarnation, we life a thousand lives, but do we remember a single one? all these sins, god must have created for a reason. if he didnt want them to be there, he would not have created them.
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#2913 Guest_Balewolf

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Posted 11 January 2006 - 02:56 AM

In my opinion, no. Or at least a Christian god. I can see Zeus maybe...
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#2914 Guest_Kem the Logician

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Posted 11 January 2006 - 03:19 AM

I've never really liked the Problem Of Evil argument very much, I was just giving it as an example of what many believe as being contradictory to God's existence. I feel that "evil" is subjective in the same sense that Socrates once spoke of, "What is holy and why is it holy, are holy things holy because God treats them as being holy, and simply based on that reason alone. If God did not treat them as holy then would something else be holy instead?"The first response to my post did mention something that reminded me of something, the belief that God granted us "choice" to commit evil. But the part where my thinking came in was, if God is omniscient, then God knows of our choices before our existence.. God knows 80 years beforehand whether we will mow the lawn on a Saturday afternoon or not, and he also knows if we plan to commit what we consider to be crimes. With this lack of free will, shouldn't it be considered that all "evil" outcomes are committed by God indirectly, in almost the same sense that a parent should be held responsible for a child acquiring a gun in the house and killing a person on accident, only difference is the parent would know beforehand that their child would commit this act.My final line is that "evil" is subjective, imo, but what do you think?

Meh, we have free will, it's just that what we do is set in stone. God simply knows and we simply act. And although God knows all of our actions, He is not the one to commit them. He simply knows that they are coming and he will not intervene. Why, you ask? Because everyone shall, whether they like it or not, recieve responsibility and retribution for their actions. The Biblical view on free will is that we have the ability to choose Him or choose the world. Tell me, if you kill someone, who is responsible? You or God? Evil can be subjective, but note; subjective evil is not absolute evil. Subjective evil is based upon the mind set and morals of the one viewing the act as evil. But there are absolute evils that are and always will be deemed evil (I.E. Murder). Evil can be subjective and it can be absolute.*Edited: Why? All evils are absolute. Evil such as an opposing force in war is subjective to the factions and their cause. When observed from a logical viewpoint, this is the only true subjective type of evil.*

Edited by kemutsemu, 11 January 2006 - 03:44 AM.

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#2915 Guest_cale6281

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Posted 11 January 2006 - 04:21 AM

Haven't really been given any solid evidence as to the existence of a superior being or not. I'm more of a 'gotta see it to believe it' type of person.
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#2916 Guest_exos22

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Posted 11 January 2006 - 04:58 AM

it's obviously open to interpretation.... like i said lately i have began doubting my faith in God... but we'll see
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#2917 Guest_Jabu

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Posted 11 January 2006 - 01:23 PM

mettax catholic christianity is totally wrong because they worship mary, mother of jesus, this is disobeying one of the ten commandments, thou shall worship me and only me. so if ive reached you, give up catholicism and become a presbytarian

Except you know, we don't actaully worship her, we jsut put some more emphasis on her and la la virgin guadelupe than other religions. So nice try, stick to your religion and he'll stick to his

The whole Virgin Mary issue with catholicism is her increased status and the increasing attempts by Roman Catholic clergy to equate her wih Jesus( in the sense of receiving salvation). Jesus is "the way the truth and the life, no one comes unto the father but through me" . The Virgin Mary's status is being increased and that is most definitely wrong. If you want it I can hit you with a deluge of information concerning the increased deification of the Virgin Mary. It's a very troubling thing for the Roman Catholic Church to be doing. Perhaps that is why he asked him to leave Roman Catholicism.
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#2918 Guest_jonno_coleman100

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Posted 12 January 2006 - 07:15 AM

My thought is that God exists because people believe in him. If everyone in the world suddennly didnt believe in god anymore, he wouldnt exist.
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#2919 Guest_Repo_Man

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Posted 12 January 2006 - 05:50 PM

My thought is that God exists because people believe in him. If everyone in the world suddennly didnt believe in god anymore, he wouldnt exist.

That's something like saying if people suddenly believed that airplanes couldn't fly anymore, they wouldn't. However they only wouldn't be able to fly because people stopped flying them, meanwhile their engineering is sound.It's been said that the devil's cruelest trick is to make people think he dosen't exist. Just some food for thought I guess.
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#2920 Guest_bebeonmars

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Posted 12 January 2006 - 11:58 PM

He exists for the people who believe in him, and not for the people who don't. I have very strange personal beliefs. I believe that something is there, but that the person makes it. I don't believe there is a big man/woman sitting in the sky somewhere planning all our little lives. I believe we make a 'God' inside ourselves to kind of give us aid. We can believe in a any of the various religions, and they all have Gods. But no one of them is the only true form or the only God. They all are 'Gods'. They're what we believe in. No one has the right to tell us that our God is wrong or fake, or that he doesn't exist. It's all in personal belief. God is spiritual and religious to some, but to others, God is nothing. However, there is not really proof of any God, and a lot of people start not believing in God when they wish and pray for so long, and get no response. I know people who have said they heard the 'voice of God guiding them' and then others who say 'I've needed God's help for so long, and God never came through'. I personally believe that people help themselves, and need to help themselves, and turn to others for help. For example, I see my God in the people I love and the people who love me. I don't believe God controls my life, but I do believe that "God" is always there to guide.Just very strange ramblings from the daughter of a very strange priest. >.< Sorry!
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#2921 Guest_RichardCranium

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Posted 13 January 2006 - 02:02 AM

There is most definitly a GOD and i beleive enyone who beleive any different is ignorant. If u are not a christian that is fine beleive in whatever god or idol etc u beleive but to not think there is a creato9r when if earth was any closer to the sun we would burn up and if we were any further we would freeze perfect balance there well that is just thats my opinion
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#2922 Guest_Kem the Logician

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Posted 13 January 2006 - 03:29 AM

My thought is that God exists because people believe in him. If everyone in the world suddennly didnt believe in god anymore, he wouldnt exist.

So if we all believed that air wasn't necessary to our wellbeing, we wouldn't have to breathe? Wow... That's some idiotic logic you've got there.
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#2923 Guest_glenn69

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Posted 13 January 2006 - 04:34 AM

i hope that there is a god becuase that means that there is a good chance of an after life and i don't know about you people but i definetly fear death, but unfortunatly i don't see very much proof of the existance of a god so i don't really believe that there is one
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#2924 Guest_moo_moo_cow

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Posted 13 January 2006 - 06:59 PM

I don't believe in hell. I think that is one common misconception: that there is a hell. I feel that those who are truly and completely evil become non-existant when they die. It doesn't matter if you believe in god or not really because the majority of the people are going to heaven because most people are good or have good intentions. People can't fathom a non-existance, I mean think about it, you're there and then you're gone... it's too much to think about. You can't tell what happens after you die if you're gone. I don't believe in a rapture either. It's stupid to believe that all Christians will be rescued from the end times; that is the time when people are tested, and the really strong people are there to help those who are hurting physically and spiritually, so why would God remove them (plus not all christians are strong, and many non christians are strong) when they are needed most?
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#2925 Guest_synalo

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Posted 18 January 2006 - 12:56 PM

i believe that god and jesus are real.i think the catholic denomination is a cult
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