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God real or not?

Started by Guest_stubblehamster , Feb 15 2005 12:22 AM

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#5301 Guest_Darkgust

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Posted 09 December 2007 - 09:46 PM

A good book to read is the God Delusion by Richard Dawkins. He has an IQ of 200+ and was voted by some european magazine to be one of the 10 smartest people on Earth currently living, so he's no joke. Look in to it. I didn't believe in God prior to reading that book, but now theres no question.

IQ is not the point here; being smart wouldn't automatically make you understand things. The thing is that all the current human knowledge is based off on what has been previously known; you can examine things and branch out furthur, but whatever you have will still be just an extension of what was known. In other words, you can be the smartest thing in the universe and you can still be utterly wrong.Returning to the topic;

The idea of a God existing still baffles me. While I will agree that the only right 'religion' would be agnostic. Considering nobody knows for sure either way. But I prefer to be atheist because all of the evidence points that direction. God is a silly idea.

The human idea of God is a silly idea. Saying that the heavenly lords have commanded you to go on a crusade (rampage) to cleanse (murder) the land of all impurities (innocent people who don't see things your way) is stupid. But that doesn't automatically make God a non-existent entity.See, when people believe something to be of a particular characteristics they don't believe is possible (Blue-polka-dotted? What the hell...), they automatically mark that something as fiction. But that's not the truth; that's the individual's perception of it, and this raises all kinds of hell (pardon the pun). You can't say for sure whether something is really what you think it is, but you can certainly solidify your certainty of your own idea.Humans, however haughty and denying pricks they are, have an incredibly tiny scope in thinking, even (maybe even especially) the "smarter" ones. You look at a bunch of trees, you think a forest. That's because you can't take in the idea of all the trees and plants and blades of grasses and bugs and whatnot are in there. Let's test this out: Assuming that the Big Bang IS in fact what caused the universe to come about, what made it? What created all the stuff for the Big Bang? What space can the stuff for the Big Bang exist in before it created the universe? What's outside of it? Where's the limit?There's plenty of things humans can't explain, and until you guys can come up with another half-cooked theory, I'll stay right where I am.In other words, to say that God doesn't exist is stupid. To say that you don't believe in God is fine.

But Christianity, IS STUPID. (Along with many, many, many, other religions. But I like to pick on Christianity.)

We agree on something.It won't happen again. :(

Anyone who believes that there is a higher power controlling and dictating the worlds ever move, is retarded. All thoughts and decisions are generated in our brain, there is no link between our brain and some guy in the sky. And anyone who believe that little devils will posses them and make them do wrong...well...there's a title to that..and it's called Schizophrenia, and maybe you need to get checked out if you believe that.

Agreed about the stupid part. But as per aforementioned, that's just a load of poppycock that a bunch of people made up and built on over time. Just because them and their ideas are ridiculous doesn't mean that God isn't real. It just means that a bunch of people has deduced that they can use him/her as a shield to to justify their own idiocity.God doesn't have to monitor you every single time you take a leak; he can just be a swell guy that created the bloody universe, checked on stuff, helped people, et cetera.

But if you really think about it, god will be out of the question in your mind.

If you can think of it properly, then you ARE God.

Edited by Darkgust, 09 December 2007 - 09:46 PM.

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#5302 Guest_Shai

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Posted 09 December 2007 - 10:42 PM

What an astounding level of ignorance and arrogance. Human kind is really something to be proud of.I jest, of course.If God doesn't exist, simply prove that he doesn't with more than conjecture and empty arguments. Some solid fact, if you can.Check every single particle in the entire universe and test it in every way possible (including using methods currently undiscovered and not even thought of) for the existence of God, and if you can't find anything, anywhere, I'll believe you.Humanity knows a tiny amount of what it's possible to know. We learn more every day, but we'll never learn everything. For example, in thirty years time someone may find a way of curing cancer with granite. I don't have a clue how that'd work, but that doesn't mean it's impossible, or that such a cure doesn't exist. Simply because my knowledge and understanding are lacking, that doesn't rule out an existence.Is there a midget hermaphrodite called Steve in Africa? Sure as the sun shines, it's unlikely, but I'd have to check every single inch of Africa almost simultaneously to be sure. I say almost simultaneously because he could move about the place, as I'm sure you realise, that's a problem when trying to find someone. The same problem doesn't exist with God, because he's everywhere, all the time. In every single particle of existence. Which means you would have to check everything just to be sure He's not real.Get what I'm saying? Some kid with a half-cocked theory and a lack of common sense saying "LOL U'D HAVE TO BE STUPID TO BELIEVE IN GOD!" does, in no way, shape, or form discredit His existence.As for me, I found God. In the little bit of knowledge I have, I know He exists. To reiterate, just because you don't know He's there, doesn't mean He isn't.

Edited by Xs, 09 December 2007 - 10:44 PM.

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#5303 Guest_epithalius

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Posted 09 December 2007 - 11:59 PM

Well if God exists then Religion has to exist.Both are inextricably intertwined.& Christianity isnt a conspiricy.. loland those who believe in the big bang theory, why would you want to believe in that in the first place? you like the fact that you were spec's that evolved into bigger specs and after soo long became a human? even if God Doesnt exist (which he does), why wouldnt you want to believe that you were created by God? that you didnt just evolve from some crap floating around in space that evovled.. and the fact that it cant be duplicated again? isnt that a clue? that u arent an evolved species? anyways, thats enough for todays lesson, feel free to reply to this, and No Flamming.

I do respect the fact that you're willing to make a stand for your faith online, and I'm glad that there are other Christians out there who aren't afraid to say what they think. That being the case, I don't think you have a very good argument. Believing in something because you want to, or believing in something because you don't want to believe in something else is a pretty bad reason. There's a lot to Christianity that I don't want to believe. I don't like the idea of hell, and I wish someone would present an argument that would prove it doesn't exist to me. However, my understanding of the Bible clearly dictates that hell does exist. I'm sure it's the same with nonbelievers, whether or not they want to believe in a God, their understanding of the universe says there isn't a God.
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#5304 Guest_kamiccolo

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 12:48 AM

The same problem doesn't exist with God, because he's everywhere, all the time. In every single particle of existence. Which means you would have to check everything just to be sure He's not real.

If god is everywhere, you only have to search 1 place (like right next to me), if he is not there (which he isn't) then he is not everywhere. If god could be anywhere in the universe then yes someone would have to search the entire universe before they could prove he doesn't exist. But this has already happened before, the Gods used to be on top of mountains or in the clouds. We are now able to search there so they say the gods must be somewhere else instead of the obvious answer, god isn't anywhere.Not being able to prove something doesn't exist is not proof that it does exist. It will never be possible to prove that god doesn't exist, because as you said we can't search everywhere for him. And if we did, people would just say he is somewhere we can not search. It is however possible to prove religions wrong, to prove the things in bibles or beliefs about god are false. For example the belief of creationism is getting less and less believable with researching evolution and finding out a different answer to what the bible says. But as soon as this happens, everyone will just say god created us by using evolution (which many people are already doing). It is impossible to prove something is wrong when it keeps changing as soon as someone is close to finding proof.
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#5305 Guest_Shai

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 02:21 AM

If god is everywhere, you only have to search 1 place (like right next to me), if he is not there (which he isn't) then he is not everywhere.

He's not there? Prove it.You've got a full-proof deity test, have you? I think not. It's a core point, you can't absolutely prove He doesn't exist, so you have to (rationally) accept that He might. So to say that God doesn't exist is either complete foolishness, or a lie.
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#5306 Guest_plog

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 02:35 AM

He's not there? Prove it.You've got a full-proof deity test, have you? I think not. It's a core point, you can't absolutely prove He doesn't exist, so you have to (rationally) accept that He might. So to say that God doesn't exist is either complete foolishness, or a lie.

Saying anything with 100% conviction is practically impossible. What if our existence is an illusion, like in the Matrix? What if there were a tiny plastic teacup saying 'I love you Grandpa' orbiting Earth? What if, indeed, there exists a midget Steve in Australia or whatever? It's dreadfully improbable, but you can never say for sure.That's the thing really. You can't prove for sure for sure that He doesn't exist, but you can't prove anything for sure. What you can do is make an objective statement based on all the evidence and knowledge that we have collected that it's almost infinitely unlikely that a creator exists, or that if he does he can't have any bearing on our everyday lives, which is the premise of most atheist arguments.
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#5307 Guest_EntombedMachine

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 02:55 AM

There's no way to prove God does or does not exist. Will we ever know? Probably not.I however, don't believe in God as any religion portrays him. I do believe in there being some sort of "higher power" but not God.
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#5308 Guest_kamiccolo

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 03:13 AM

He's not there? Prove it.

I suppose I could take a picture of my room, but it would be easier for you to just believe me since I am currently in my room and you are not. Obviously I would know more about what / who is in my room than you do.

You've got a full-proof deity test, have you? I think not. It's a core point, you can't absolutely prove He doesn't exist, so you have to (rationally) accept that He might. So to say that God doesn't exist is either complete foolishness, or a lie.

I've never said a have proof of god not existing, in fact I'm pretty sure I said I did not have proof and it would be impossible to find proof at least once (maybe more) during my last post. I do accept there is a possibility of some higher power creating the universe, but theres also an almost unlimited amount of other things that could have happened, and a lot of those would have a higher chance of being true. Based on what I know, I don't think God exists. I'm not being foolish by thinking this, I'm just looking at facts which have been discovered in the past few centuries and making what I believe to be the most likely answer. You have said it yourself that we are constantly discovering new things. Why would I believe something which people made up a few thousand years ago, when I can believe the smarter people in this time who have done research to find facts for different answers?
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#5309 Guest_MBM10

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 05:32 AM

I believe in God very avidly, and I think it's sad for the people who don't. However, I feel us Christians getting very mad and emotional over the non-believers is almost useless and maybe contradictory. Are you seriously going to change someone's mind who doesn't believe in God?It is also terrible how non-believers mock our religion. Why? Christian values (for people who use them) are very good to live by for anybody, even non-believers. People shouldn't mock each others religion, it is a choice, and we can say everybody else is wrong, but what is going to prove? That you're an overemotional idiot contradicting yourself? No, I can no longer argue over religion, but rather encourage others to make, what I feel is, the right path.
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#5310 Guest_MBM10

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 05:39 AM

I also forgot to mention, people have gone to war and died over religion *cough, crusades (i think) cough*. Are you f***ing serious? That is the dumbest thing I have ever heard. Like I said, having a heated argument over this is almost silly.
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#5311 Guest_Darkgust

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 05:43 AM

Saying anything with 100% conviction is practically impossible. What if our existence is an illusion, like in the Matrix? What if there were a tiny plastic teacup saying 'I love you Grandpa' orbiting Earth? What if, indeed, there exists a midget Steve in Australia or whatever? It's dreadfully improbable, but you can never say for sure.That's the thing really. You can't prove for sure for sure that He doesn't exist, but you can't prove anything for sure. What you can do is make an objective statement based on all the evidence and knowledge that we have collected that it's almost infinitely unlikely that a creator exists, or that if he does he can't have any bearing on our everyday lives, which is the premise of most atheist arguments.

How much do you know?How much can you know?How much do you need to know?Come back when you can answer these questions and convince all of us.

I believe in God very avidly, and I think it's sad for the people who don't. However, I feel us Christians getting very mad and emotional over the non-believers is almost useless and maybe contradictory. Are you seriously going to change someone's mind who doesn't believe in God?It is also terrible how non-believers mock our religion. Why? Christian values (for people who use them) are very good to live by for anybody, even non-believers. People shouldn't mock each others religion, it is a choice, and we can say everybody else is wrong, but what is going to prove? That you're an overemotional idiot contradicting yourself? No, I can no longer argue over religion, but rather encourage others to make, what I feel is, the right path.

I don't dislike people wise enough to know some parts of just about everything thought up of by humans are stupid. I dislike Christianity.It's gotten to the point where I just about think God only let the non-believers into Heaven, because then they won't use him/her as an excuse, or murder people "in his/her name", or need a reason to be kind.

Edited by Darkgust, 10 December 2007 - 05:44 AM.

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#5312 NameDisplay

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 05:45 AM

You've got to wonder if the people who talk the loudest about 'knowing' god exists are trying to convince themselves rather than trying to make a point. Belief in god is fine, and I have no problem with that. But when people start talking about how they know for a fact something that is inherently unprovable, you start to wonder if they're trying to convince themselves of something they want to be true but are afraid is a fabrication.

Edited by NameDisplay, 10 December 2007 - 05:45 AM.

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#5313 Guest_Darkgust

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 07:24 AM

You've got to wonder if the people who talk the loudest about 'knowing' god exists are trying to convince themselves rather than trying to make a point. Belief in god is fine, and I have no problem with that. But when people start talking about how they know for a fact something that is inherently unprovable, you start to wonder if they're trying to convince themselves of something they want to be true but are afraid is a fabrication.

Same thing goes for the other side.Of every single argument out there.
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#5314 Guest_Mariposa Chiquita

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 07:36 AM

Same thing goes for the other side.Of every single argument out there.

NameDisplay is agnostic. I think he's trying to say that there's no way to prove either way whether or not God exists. All one has is faith. Hard-core atheists are just like believers, only they believe fervently in the non-existence of God, while believers believe fervently in the existence of God. Each side is zealous and believes they are right and know the answers of the universe. Only agnostics know that the truth is simply unknowable, and are free from the burden of proof.
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#5315 Guest_Darkgust

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 08:31 AM

It's not unknowable, but it's hard to prove that what you know is indeed the truth, and not your idea of it.Unless you're God or something.
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#5316 NameDisplay

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 03:18 PM

How can you possibly know, as in have it proved as a fact and not something that requires the proverbial leap of of faith, that god exists?
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#5317 Guest_Darkgust

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 04:20 PM

How can you possibly know, as in have it proved as a fact and not something that requires the proverbial leap of of faith, that god exists?

And how can you prove that he/she doesn't?I like how the athetists keep saying that there isn't proof that God exist (and therefore he mustn't) , but don't have any way to deny it either.
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#5318 NameDisplay

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 04:34 PM

I can see I'm going to have to keep things simple.I'm an agnostic, which is something clearly mentioned just a few posts above. I don't believe god does or does not exist, because I think it's something that cannot be proved either way. Therefore, I'm on neither side of the god is/isn't real debate. What I find interesting is how some people, on both sides of the debate, have a tendency to use the fact that you can't prove god does/doesn't exist as some kind of proof that their position is the right one.
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#5319 Guest_Darkgust

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 04:39 PM

Yes, that's what I mean.People use the lack of proof to disprove the other side's argument, rather than use proof to prove their own.It's laughable.
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#5320 Guest_الِش

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 05:37 PM

I've got no problem with atheists...I can't see why you do, judging by the fact that all they do is go one step further from agnostics and guess there is no God. Not so different from us, stating that there is a God, regardless of what logic tells us.It's the angstheists that I dislike.
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#5321 cgfreak

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 05:55 PM

Care to elaborate about angtheism? I've never heard of it.

Yes, that's what I mean.People use the lack of proof to disprove the other side's argument, rather than use proof to prove their own.It's laughable.

But... there is no proof. There will never be proof. Theism, or lack therof, is something you must decide on your own, with your feelings. If you feel, think, you don't believe in something unless you see it, how is that laughable?
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i do remember one thing.
it took hours and hours but.
by the time i was done with it.
i was so involved. i didn't even know what to think.
i carried it around with me for days. and days.
playing little games.
like. not looking at it for a whole day.
and then. looking at it.
to see if I still liked it.
i did.

#5322 Guest_Darkgust

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 07:10 PM

But... there is no proof. There will never be proof. Theism, or lack therof, is something you must decide on your own, with your feelings. If you feel, think, you don't believe in something unless you see it, how is that laughable?

*Sign* Let me reillerate (again)I find it laughable that people will sooner attempt to kick out the competition than put in any effort to show that they are, in fact, correct. I'm not laughing at the fact that people don't believe in things when they have seen no proof for it.
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#5323 Guest_Balore

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Posted 10 December 2007 - 10:17 PM

I used to consider myself an agnostic, but that was before I realized that there were many different types of atheism. You see, like most people, a part of me thought that all atheists claimed to know with 100% that there is no God. Of course, this is a lie, and I've actually never met an atheist that was so absolute.Now I consider myself a "de facto" atheist, which is just a fancy way of saying that I don't believe in God, but I accept the fact that one might exist, only in the same way I accept the fact that there might be a 126-legged, invisible, rainbow scorpion roaming the Earth, though. In other words, my belief is practically non-existent.That's my only problem with agnosticism: it can make some people categorize all atheists into the same group. Of course, I realize that not all agnostics do that, but from my experience, most "50/50" agnostics seem to.

Edited by Balore, 10 December 2007 - 10:19 PM.

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#5324 Guest_الِش

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Posted 11 December 2007 - 01:27 AM

Care to elaborate about angtheism? I've never heard of it.An atheist version of a jacka** JW. You know, one who knocks on your door, claims that his belief is absolute, claims that you are a jacka** if you disagree with him, misquotes a famous figure from history.Though in this case, angtheism is limited to teenagers on the internet. For the most part.
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#5325 Guest_plog

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Posted 11 December 2007 - 01:59 AM

*Sign* Let me reillerate (again)I find it laughable that people will sooner attempt to kick out the competition than put in any effort to show that they are, in fact, correct. I'm not laughing at the fact that people don't believe in things when they have seen no proof for it.

With that sort of argument we're not going anywhere.You keep saying that. You want arguments? Here are arguments, the basic ones at least. There's no point going into detail since I'm not a scientist.If the creator made everything, who made the creator? (And not 'he was just there, mind you.')How exactly does being omnipotent and omniscient work? (All-powerful? Really? Also, http://owenmcleod.wo...e-god-delusion)...I can't think of any more in 30 seconds or less off the top of my head but there are many, many more. And I don't mean Bible inaccuracies, those are red herrings.You want proof, but I will gladly concede that it is impossible to give it. Is it possible to prove that our world isn't really an illusion cast by some sort of powerful alien machine? Is it possible to prove there isn't an Invisible Pink Unicorn prancing among us? No, but I wouldn't contest that those premises were false as far as we care about it.We can't give proof, but we can give reasonable arguments. If you rebut we will listen, but just saying 'you have no arguments so you're wrong' doesn't help much.Or, you know, what Balore said. >_>
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