6399 replies to this topic

[Kiba]

I choose not to believe in a god, at least, not the same anthropomorphic god that lies in Christianity. Or most major religions, for that matter.These religious beliefs are all typically the same: a monotheistic celestial being that intervened on a daily basis in the days of our Ancestors, appoints a predetermined prophet to preach his gospel, then vanishes into thin air.If there ever was a god, why did he just leave? Why does he (or she) allow atrocities to go forth without any sort of repercussions?

I am just curious, do you even know what anthropomorphic means? How, exactly is the judeo-christian god anthropomorphic? When is he ever described as having an animal form with human characteristics or a human with animal characteristics?Um god never appointed a prophet in many of the monotheistic religions.When you attempt to look at polytheistic religions you see that their gods interact with their people on a semi-daily basis.

[38542788]

YAY! Could life get any easier?! Oh, shoot, hang on a second... Where did the mommy and daddy deer come from? ^o) How troubling. Actually, maybe not so much, I already know. GOD created them.

Abiogenesis isn't quite as well developed as evolution (I'm assuming you're questioning how life arises from inanimate matter?), but it doesn't mean that there aren't reasonable theories floating around, I think RNA world is currently the most popular. The fact that I can't offer an answer to a particular question doesn't really weaken my position. The scientific method offers a way for anyone to seek answers to such a question, and it does it in a way that everyone can agree on because it is based upon something most people have, their own five senses and the ability to rationally process information. You already have an answer, "god created them", but how will you go about communicating this to others? I'm assuming that the answer makes some sense to you because you can (in some way) perceive god. However, I personally (and many others I would assume) does not have this ability, how do you perceive god? Do you see god? Do you hear him? Do you feel him? We can see DNA with certain types of microscopes, we can observe what happens when fruit flies or peas are breed for a specific purpose, we can record the movements of various heavenly bodies, and by we, I mean you and I can both do this if you put in enough effort to obtain the time, knowledge and resources to do so. Can you offer me a way to perceive your god?Another problem is that "god did it" or "the devil did it" or "a witch did it" is basically a nonanswer, people used to attribute the same causes to things like drought or disease, it's a way to avoid looking any further at a question. If you ask me why a particular disease hit an area I would reference germ theory and tell you to disinfect everything and put a quarantine in place (or whatever other measures would fit with the disease in question). How would you answer the same question? God did it? How does that help me at all?

Yeah, okay, I get it I read the link. To be honest, even though I got an A in English language, my English is nowhere near as good as yours, in case you haven't already noticed, so my understanding of what he said was quiet limited, but I grasped the general idea, I think. Ok, so IronChariots is saying that claiming there's God and claiming there's a cause to everything contradict each other. Well, listen, see that pillow over there? I created it. I sewed it together and stuffed it with cotton and stuff and now it's quiet comfortable. Now, I created the pillow. Who created me? God. This stops here. Who created God? That's a wrong question, because it's confusing the attributes of the creator with those of the creation. Ok, so look at the pillow. I eat, drink, feel, etc. Does the pillow do any of those things? No, because it's very limited. Can the pillow talk to me? No, talking is beyond its ability. It's wrong to ask who created God, because that's beyond your ability to understand. As I said before, we live in boundaries of time and space. God is outside those.

If god is outside of our capability to understand, he must remain wholly outside of our understanding. You cannot say that we can know that god is a just god while saying that we cannot know why god exists. If god's existence cannot be subject to logic then neither can any other qualities be examined. Saying that god exists would be meaningless because you would have no means to describe what god is.

Also, the guy is talking about why we call Him God. Well, does it really matter what we call Him? Doesn't matter to me. I don't call Him that, anyway, because English isn't my native language and He's called something else there. Besides, even if English is my native language, the word God is general. God's name in Jewish is Yahweh/YHWH; in Islam it's Allah; in Christianity is't also something else, and each call Him by the name they believe He has. So, really God is just a general name for the being up there, it doean't mean anything to me, as I don't call Him by that name. I just use it here because that's what it is in English.

It's important because there it allows you to examine the origins of belief. For example, in the bible itself, the various names for demons are actually foreign gods contemporary with the Jewish nations at the time. You can even examine how the belief changes over time. For example, the early Hebrews weren't monotheistic, they worshiped YHWH because that was their tribal patron god. Since the old testament was created as by the cult of YHWH it glosses this over but there are still passages where it shows through. The Egyptian magicians weren't said to be tricksters, their magic was "real" magic (according to the authors of genesis at least), what was shown was that their powers were not as strong as that of Aaron, both groups had transforming snake-staffs, but Aaron's staff managed to eat their snake-staffs. Then there was the fact that idolatry was referenced many many times, with Solomon shown to have been worshiping other gods in addition to YHWH. In Job the character of Satan was an angel (or possibly an entire group of angels, with the name of Adversary or Nemesis), without any indication that Satan was antagonistic towards god, this changed later in revelation (and the rest of the new testament really), where Satan was depicted as an enemy of god, and the gods of competing cultures (Baal, Beelzebub) were called demons instead of the label of "false gods" used earlier.If you understand the history behind these names, you can understand how these beliefs were based in human cultures and arise naturally, not divinely.

I provided my evidence. You just don't regard it as evidence for some reason. Please let's not argue about what is or isn't evidence any more because this is what I'll keep saying: I provided my evidence. Whether you regard it as evidence or not is really irrelevant to me, because in the end, it is my evidence.

You seemed to have been trying to advocate some form of creationism which doesn't really imply a particular god, but that's alright because creationism is quite easy to refute, so it doesn't really matter which particular god you are trying to tie to it.You example was the human body and the world at large. If we were to accept the idea of conscious design for a particular purpose then there is obvious a variety problems. For example, humans have very little muscle mass when compared to other primates, a 90lb chimpanzee can literally rip your arm off, an average Neanderthal can probably do the same. If you accept that large muscles are good, there is obviously something wrong with the human body as it is. The recurrent laryngeal nerve goes from the brain to the larynx, but it first goes down through the chest, forming a loop. The human retina is located at the back of the eye, as is our optic nerve, causing us to have a blind spot. The human knee is not designed for bipedal motion, it is much more easily damaged than the legs of quadrupedal mammals.If you assume that the world as it is is designed for life, why restrict it to this one planet? Why not design all solar systems to have planets capable of sustaining life? Why is it that life is carbon based rather than say, silicone, (another common element with similar chemical properties). You're wrong about our relative position in the solar system as well, either Mars or Venus can sustain life if their atmospheres allowed it, Mars does not have enough mass to maintain an atmosphere, Venus has too much of one so it experiences intense greenhouse effects, why didn't god see fit to design these two planets to sustain life instead of just Earth?

If the sinner believe in God, but they sinned, they aren't eternally punished because in the end, they did believe in God. they go to hell until their sins are gone and then they go to heaven. Sounds pretty easy doesn't it? Hell isn't easy, not even if you're in it for a second, and you don't know how long those sinners will spend until they're punished for them. Some do stay for eternity, though, a lot, even. Anyway, it isn't even that simple, I am in no position to say how God judges us. Because in the end, He's all merciful, and He is just. But I know one thing for a fact: no one will go to hell, eternally or not, if they don't deserve it.

How did you arrive at these conclusions?

Sure, sure, that's all very nice. Now, let's see. Suppose God did remove evil. Yeah, what next? we all live happily ever after? No such thing. If you believe 'society has to work', as you said in an earlier reply, then you must believe that evil has to exist, as society doesn't 'work' otherwise. If there was no evil, there are no jobs, for example. I mean, why make a bank when there's no such thing as losing or stealing, why have police if no one commits crime? Why have a president if we don't need law to keep us in order? Not just jobs, why read if we don't need to, because technically, we read so that we're not ignorant, and if evil doesn't exist, then neither does ignorance. What, and hey, we don't even have to eat, because there's no such thing as famine, so no matter how little or even if we eat nothing, we still never starve. Oh my God and how could I forget, we could also EAT as much as we want (without being overweight, as this causes illness and illness is evil) and we could leave taps and lights open all the time and... Hang on a second! Isn't that, in a very twisted and brain spraining way, evil in itself? Having no evil, causes evil. Evil HAS to exist whether you like it or not. I hate it when people use the argument of evil to contradict God, because I think it's one of the shallowest arguments I ever heard of. If you want to be philosophic with me, think before you talk. You're contradicting your own self if you're saying society has to work then saying evil shouldn't exist.God made BALANCE. He balanced everything out. There's poor and there's rich (and the rich should give the poor), there's happy and there's sad (and the happy should cheer up the sad), there's stupid and there's smart (and the smart should help the stupid), there's blessed and there's damned (and the blessed should guide the damned), etc. We can tip that balance off or we can keep it, but either way, these extremes will always exist.

You're not really getting the problem of evil.The point is to show people how their conception of evil does not mesh with their belief in god. For example, if god told you to kill a child for the purposes of ethnic cleansing, would doing so be evil? What about taking that child as a slave instead, evil or not? Many such passages can be found in various scripture. The problem of evil isn't that a good god exists but also allows evil to exist, after all, you could just define the entire world as being good (or possibly even the best of all worlds, as you apparently did 300 years after Leibniz), it's that your own conception of whether an individual act is good or not does not mesh with the beliefs you purport to hold about god.

Yeah, this is totally twisting my mind around. I mean I understand the words you're saying but not really what it means all together. Still, too young, I guess XP. Excuse my limited brain capacity.

He's saying that the default position is no god. Someone born without knowledge of god does not arrive at the position "god exists" without reason. For example, if you were born in a country that subscribed to some variety of communism in the recent past (like me), it's very likely that organized religion would have been crushed as a social force and you wouldn't even understand the concept of god without someone first attempting to convert you.

It depends whether "more than one loony" means -as of 2002- almost 53% of the world's population (and that's just for the three Abrahamic religions) or not. If so, then maybe it is worth thinking about, right?

You can hardly argue that there is any consensus there, the beliefs those billions of people hold do not mesh very well with each other at all. Instead why don't you try to find a biologist who doesn't believe in evolution or a geologist that rejects plate tectonics? I'm not saying that it's impossible, but it would be a lot harder than it is to find any two Christians that don't agree about a point of doctrine.

I am just curious, do you even know what anthropomorphic means? How, exactly is the judeo-christian god anthropomorphic? When is he ever described as having an animal form with human characteristics or a human with animal characteristics?

Doesn't have to be some sort of human-animal hybrid for anthropomorphism to apply, it just has to be anything non-human that's been given human characteristics. In the case of the Christian god this would apply with the whole "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness" thing.

Edited by 38542788, 30 September 2010 - 08:26 PM.

[Ragamuffin]

I don't want to get pulled into this ongoing, circular argument, I just wanted to jump in for a second.

The earth is enough for the human race right now, even with the rapid population growth.

How long do you think that's going to last?

Anyway, Since you claim that our bodies naturally evolved to all that is around us and such, then why can't we just take a trip to Mars and let our bodies evolve and adapt in their own ways? Why worry about their atmosphere? Surely, if we managed to adapt to the Earth's atmosphere, then we can adapt to that of Mars?

You understand that evolving isn't exactly an overnight process, right?

Also, us being in the Earth in specific and not any other planet proves my point about decisions being made.

No, it proves absolutely nothing. So, you know for a fact that nothing else exists anywhere? Observable space stretches for 16.3 billion light years, and I very much doubt that you somehow know what inhabits each and every planet in that area. In fact, some Earth-like (as far as we know) planets have been discovered, several dozen actually. The problem is that we're not advanced enough to be able to reach them. If the Dark Ages never happened, who knows what level of technology we could've reached by now? Unfortunately that little 800 year gap in scientific progress kind of screwed things up for everybody.That aside, how does life on other planets, or the lack thereof prove anything? Extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof.

Surely we didn't just randomly happen to get thrown into the planet that best fits our needs? I mean, why weren't animals in Mars and we're on Earth and the trees on Venus?

There are theories claiming that life did exist on Mars millions of years ago, and that life may still exist beneath the surface, and Venus is far too hot to support any Earth life (over 800F). The atmosphere is so thick that we can't even see the surface of the planet, so we actually have very little idea of what's on it.Also, you say the fact that humans are only on Earth "proves" your point about the existence of a God. Okay, then why create trillions of other planets and stars? Seems kind of like a waste of time and space if you ask me.

Why did all come together in one place in such a way that benefits only the human race? Again, decisions.

"all come together"? What the hell does that even mean? Earth only benefits humans? You know that every other creature here benefits just by being able to eat and breathe, right?

[38542788]

[quote name='majoodah' post='4872757' date='Oct 2 2010, 12:03 PM']I understand what you're saying and you do have a point. Yeah, I can't see God, I can't hear Him, I can't touch Him, can't smell Him etc... But what I can do, is that I can feel Him. I'm praying, for example, and I just feel Him.. I feel like He's there, I feel Him watching me. I can't explain it, and you wouldn't get it anyway because you've never experienced it, but I have, and I know for sure that He's there. Also, this question could relate to the soul. I mean, some atheists believe in souls but some don't. If you do, then it's pretty much the same thing. You can't see, touch or hear your soul. Yet, you know it's there, because you see its effects on you.[/quote]You did not answer my last question. Can you offer me a way to perceive your god?If your intent in posting in this thread was to convince others that god is real (I do not really see what other purpose you can have), then you would have failed pretty badly if cannot answer that.[quote name='majoodah' post='4872757' date='Oct 2 2010, 12:03 PM']I agree that a lot of people use God to answer everything, but I like to think I'm not one of them. If you gave me a question I'd look into it and try to find reasonable or scientific answers and, to your example, I'd give an answer similar to the one you gave. However, when it comes down to the ultimate question, a question that can't be explained through scientific theories, my answer would be God willed it to happen. That's the answer that doesn't have a question after it. If you ask why (as in, why did God will it to happen), I can give you many answers that I assume are true, but neither you nor I will have a definite answer. It's just God willed it to happen, and He has His reasons.[/quote]First I would like to remind you that the people who accused others of witchcraft did not consider themselves irrational, it just didn't occur to people that droughts or diseases had naturalistic causes. In the same way, it's just not occurring to you that life as it currently is could have occurred by naturalistic causes. Your can't mark the boundaries of human knowledge and say that "beyond here is god", remember that those boundaries used to include things like diseases and droughts, it was only after questioning and investigation that the boundaries were pushed back. Besides that, "beyond here is god" tells us nothing useful (unless you go about assigning specific qualities to god), why not just say "beyond here is the unknown" and try to work out the answer?Secondly, like others have said, whether or not evolution in fact describe how things currently are, does not really deal with whether god is real or not unless your god has certain qualities and histories attached to it that precludes evolution. If that's the case (for example, your holy book contains a creation myth wherein god creates the world as it is, with a specific chronology even), then I have to ask you, how exactly did you arrive at your conclusion that evolution did not occur?Did you read your holy book and then look for "evidence" to back it up? Or did you hold those views because of the "evidence" that you posted here and you found that it happened to match what you read?[quote name='majoodah' post='4872757' date='Oct 2 2010, 12:03 PM']If we understand everything about God, then where's the challenge in believing in Him? We'd need no faith, because all the answers are right in front of us, there's nothing to question. God gave us enough knowledge for us to believe in Him. On the other hand, He didn't give all the knowledge, because then we'd all believe, no questions asked.[/quote]I am not seeking a challenge and I did not ask about faith.Why is faith necessary for belief in god? Is there something wrong about a totally obvious god? I find the truth as uncovered by the scientific process to be completely obvious, that is what is attractive about it. Why do you bring up faith as if it is a good thing? Faith leads to completely contradictory conclusions, some people have faith in Allah, some in various Buddhas, and others in a variety of other deities. Do you belief that their faith is less strong or less valid than yours?[quote name='majoodah' post='4872757' date='Oct 2 2010, 12:03 PM']Some beliefs did indeed arise naturally, and some of the names given to God were just made up as stories were passed down. However, just as there are beliefs that, as you said, were based on culture, there are also those who are indeed divine, and those are the ones I believe in, and I always make sure to track down and research anything I hear about God, to make sure I'm not misunderstanding or believing a myth.[/quote]No offense but it seems like you're really not doing a very good job.[quote name='majoodah' post='4872757' date='Oct 2 2010, 12:03 PM']Well, look at animals who do have a lot of body mass such as an ox, say. How do we use an ox to benefit us? We make it carry stuff, or at least we used to, as now there are more reliable machinery. Us humans, we're not designed to carry stuff. We've been created to live for a certain amount of time and during that time we love, we have fun, we worship God -in some cases-, we work etc. Our bodies can do all the things we need them to do, and if we want to be even stronger there are always ways to do that. About the blind spot, well, you don't really need to see much more than you see now, do you? Rabbits, for example, have eyes on the side of their heads and can swivel 360 degrees., but that's because they need to run away from their predators. I doubt you need to run away from any such thing, so you don't really need that kind of vision. I'd reply to the rest as well, but my point in the end is that you're efficient the way you are. Besides, there's no creation perfect in every aspect, as then it wouldn't deserve to be a mere creation. There's only one being that's perfect in every way and that's God.[/quote]You're missing the point, the question is which model fits the data best.The data available is that there are flaws in the human body that should be easily fixed if the human body was designed.The models are as follows:1. the human body is designed2. the human body arose by gradual changes to previous structures, quadruped legs became biped legs (explains why knees are so badly "designed"), inverted retina occurs in vertebrates but not cephalopods because those eyes evolved separately (explains why only vertebrates have blind spots), loss of muscle mass is coupled with increase in brain mass to result in lower net energy expenditure (less muscle isn't necessarily bad, that was a trick question I gave you, god could obviously make people as strong as he want with no shortcomings, but in the real world muscles burn calories, which is bad if you can't find enough food).Now which model do you think fits the data best?[quote name='majoodah' post='4872757' date='Oct 2 2010, 12:03 PM']Indeed, why? I ask the same question. It just goes to show that decisions are being made. There's a being choosing and making choices.[/quote]This is nonsense.Pretend that Mars does have life, now say "It just goes to show that decisions are being made. There's a being choosing and making choices." What you said remains true.Now imagine that people can live in the vacuum of space and then say "It just goes to show that decisions are being made. There's a being choosing and making choices." What you said still remains true. Funny how that happens huh?[quote name='majoodah' post='4872757' date='Oct 2 2010, 12:03 PM']Us being closer to the sun on average will destroy life in one way or another, because logically that would indeed heat up the earth too much a.k.a. global warming. Us being too far would end us up in another ice age. Besides, any planet can sustain life if its atmosphere allowed it!? It just so happens that Earth is the only one whose atmosphere does allow it.[/quote]No, the atmosphere acts as a negative feedback loop, it prevents rapid changes in temperature. The equator isn't hotter because it's closer to the sun, it's hotter because the rotation of the Earth allows it to have a longer day than most other parts of the Earth. We can move hundreds of thousands of miles in either direction without any problem. By the way, global warming is due to the greenhouse effect, which is the insulating effect of the atmosphere I mentioned, it is dependent on the atmosphere not on our relative position in the solar system.[quote name='majoodah' post='4872757' date='Oct 2 2010, 12:03 PM']Do you feel the need to go live on Mars? The earth is enough for the human race right now, even with the rapid population growth. Anyway, recent studies also showed that one day we'll even be able to live on the moon (read it in a couple of magazines), so who knows? Maybe one day we really will be able to live on the moon and Mars and Venus, with the way technology is advancing. I don't quiet get how that contradicts my argument...[/quote]Your argument was that the world as it is shows design.My argument is that the world can be drastically different and according to you still show signs of design.You're saying that god exists because the Earth holds life. I am asking you under what conditions would it show that god does not exist?[quote name='majoodah' post='4872757' date='Oct 2 2010, 12:03 PM']Anyway, Since you claim that our bodies naturally evolved to all that is around us and such, then why can't we just take a trip to Mars and let our bodies evolve and adapt in their own ways? Why worry about their atmosphere? Surely, if we managed to adapt to the Earth's atmosphere, then we can adapt to that of Mars?[/quote]We did not adapt to Earth's atmosphere, that was done by some unknown ancestor species, the work was already done. It is possible that certain forms of Earth life can live on Mars and they may eventually speciate into other creatures, but you should really read up on what evolution is before going any further because that question really shows that you have no idea what you're talking about.[quote name='majoodah' post='4872757' date='Oct 2 2010, 12:03 PM']Also, us being in the Earth in specific and not any other planet proves my point about decisions being made. Surely we didn't just randomly happen to get thrown into the planet that best fits our needs? I mean, why weren't animals in Mars and we're on Earth and the trees on Venus? Why did all come together in one place in such a way that benefits only the human race? Again, decisions.[/quote]"Benefit" is a somewhat subjective. like what I mentioned about design earlier, would it not "benefit" us to have a better designed knee and eyes without blind spots?Would it not "benefit" us for things like cancer to not exist?As for you suggestion about animals being on Mars etc. I guess you have given a scenario where you would say that there is no design. You are saying that an absurd universe would be one that shows lack of design. Well, you and I would agree there, but that does not prove that a rational universe is designed.[quote name='majoodah' post='4872757' date='Oct 2 2010, 12:03 PM']I came to these conclusions because they're the ones that I believe God stated about Himself. He said He's just, therefore, He won't let someone who doesn't deserve hell to go there. Simple.[/quote]No, no. I meant from what sources did you get this information? Did you read it somewhere? Did you hear it from someone?[quote name='majoodah' post='4872757' date='Oct 2 2010, 12:03 PM']Oh OK, I get you. But still. Ok, Think of yourself as a teacher, right? Now obviously, if you're a good teacher, you don't want your students to fail. Actually, you really want them all to pass with flying colours. At the same time, you need to be fair. Just because you want them all to pass, doesn't mean you'll give them a super easy exam, or maybe even no exam at all. You need to give them an exam, and it needs to have certain challenging questions, whether you -or they- like it or not, because otherwise, the way they passed that exam wouldn't be fair. This exam can represent evil in the world. Now, God is omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent. What you forget, is that He's also ultimately just and fair. I repeat, He's omnibenevolent and merciful, yet just and impartial. For those two to coexist, this is the only way I can think of.[/quote]No. I am not saying that it's wrong for there to be evil in the world. It is very easy to refute that because evil is very subjective, you can just change your definition of evil to slide around my objections.What I'm saying is that your conception of god is not omnibenevolent because you judge evil based on a criterion other than "what god says".If your god is omnibenevolent, then by definition everything god does is good. But this is not how people actually judge whether things are good or not. They judge things according to a moral code that may be linked with religion but is ultimately separate from it. I can give you passages from several holy books showing god commanding people to kill other people. Would you say that killing people is right because god commanded it? If so, what makes your particular god different from gods giving such commands in other holy books?[quote name='majoodah' post='4872757' date='Oct 2 2010, 12:03 PM']I understand what you mean. And it makes sense to an extent, but I think that even if you've never heard of God, you'd just find Him within you when looking around you. You'd wonder how it all came about. I mean think about it. You've been living in a desert, for example, ever since you could remember, all alone. As you walk around you and look up at the night sky and other things around you'd automatically wonder how it all came together, you know? And I think that "the universe flashed into existence" isn't what'll pop in your head, but "Something/somebody has created it" is more likely to do so. Of course, it's not like I've ever been in that position, but I'm just stating this from a personal perspective and based on what I think and what I've read about other prophets who came to realise God's existence on their own.[/quote]I can tell you for sure that that was not my own thought process as a child before I knew about religion.I also have to doubt the process if all those prophets happened to have came to different answers.[quote name='majoodah' post='4872757' date='Oct 2 2010, 12:03 PM']But, you see, that isn't really my point. Because in the end, all of those billions, no matter how much they disagree, all agree completely on one point: God exists. The details aren't important. I'm not here to debate for a specific religion, I'm debating for God's existence. Judaism, Christianity and Islam have all changed over the years, and I think that their disagreements are slowly increasing. But at the end of the day, a Jew, Christian and a Muslim can all sit together in the same room, and talk about evidence on God's existence and their experiences with Him in perfect harmony, because they all agree on that. Whether one thinks He has a son, or one thinks there are other Gods beside Him is irrelevant because they all come to the same conclusion when it comes to how the universe came to existence: God created it.[/quote]No, there are drastically different cosmologies in other religions, and you haven't given me a reason to judge them as any less right (or wrong) than Abrahamic monotheism.There are religions where there are twin forces, good and evil evenly matched, there are religions where the end times are the twilight of the gods not the kingdom of heaven on Earth, there are religions where the soul is not immortal and dies along with the body, there are religions where the creator god is evil, and many others cosmologies I won't list. Why are these wrong and your god right?

Edited by 38542788, 04 October 2010 - 05:38 AM.

[MONKEYMAN8]

I live my life as if there is no god because there is not one iota of compelling evidence for and sort of divine being. I do not however claim there is no god, for no one rational deals in absolutes. I do consider it infinitely unlikely however that a god exists, but for day to day life the question doesn't even enter my head. Without evidence it's useless speculation when my time could be better spent elsewhere. (could be, but obviously isn't since I'm here now)

[38542788]

Yes, I can. But it's a little difficult for you, you see. In order to perceive Him, you'd have to believe in Him, that gives you all the perceiving you'd ever need.You seem to be confusing cause and effect here. You are saying that you can perceive god. I assume that you believe in god because of this (please correct me if I'm wrong and tell me why you believe in god if this is not the case). I cannot perceive god, so I do not believe in god. Telling me that in order to perceive god I must first believe in god is backwards. Perception needs to come before belief not after.Let me put it this way. At some point in your life you could not perceive god and you did not believe in god. Which came first and is it repeatable (can you give me directions on how I can perceive and believe in god)? Firstly, Droughts and diseases were never outside of time and place. They always happened at certain times in certain places. The human mind just wasn't developed enough to interpret these things in any other way. We probably still do that with a lot of things, but they're not all necessarily outside of the boundaries I mentioned. We'll always be discovering and inventing new things, but we can never go beyond the boundaries of time and place because that's just how we are. We can't fly by waving our arms in the air, we can't think beyond time and place. Therefore, we can never really understand God until we, too, are slotted out of those boundaries (e.g. in judgement day). I can always say beyond that is the unknown, but I'll be quick to say that beyond the unknown is God.Various natural phenomena are non-causal, to put it plainly, lots of things are as we understand it "outside time". I mean, subatomic particle pop into existence all the time, just because we don't understand it (we being you and me, neither of whom are physicists) doesn't mean that it's beyond understanding.Furthermore, something like evolution is very much in the realm of "time and space" as you put it. We can even watch it happen in a single day with things that have short generation spans.Secondly, yes, I do believe God created things with a certain chronology. But mainly, I believe He created the heavens and the earth in six days, Adam being on the last day. So if I believe God created Adam as a human, I'd be contradicting myself if I believed in evolution at the same time. Sure, animals plants and humans have changed over time, but at the end of the day, according to my belief, an animal remained an animal and a human being remained a human being and a plant remained a plant until they died.That makes things even easier actually.Assuming that speciation does not occur, all living things extant and extinct must have at one time lived as contemporaries. But from fossil records if we resurrect even a portion of the extinct species that we know of from the fossil record, the Earth would literally not have enough room to hold all those creatures. Also certain things are just not found as contemporaries in the fossil records, you can find different dinosaurs preserved in the same piece of rock, you never find a dinosaur buried with a horse it just killed. The same with trilobites, you can finds a single layer of rock with thousands of trilobites and fish skeletons, but the fish are never the kind that lives today, they aren't even remotely similar, they have things like bony head plates that don't exist in any extant fish species.[quote name='majoodah' post='4873943' date='Oct 5 2010, 02:38 PM']Just because I -or anyone- don't seek a challenge from God doesn't mean He's going to show Himself to me and tell me I'm spared. Like it or not, we all have to go through exams in our lives. Believing in God is just the biggest one of all, in my opinion.[/quote]Spared from what exactly?[quote name='majoodah' post='4873943' date='Oct 5 2010, 02:38 PM']You tell me to read more about evolution and stuff yet you don't seem to have the first clue about God, either. A "totally obvious God" wouldn't really be a God, because God is meant to be unknown, if God is within boundaries of time and space, which is the only way we can see Him, unless we were outside those with Him, then, He'd be just as limited as we are. Therefore, having "a totally obvious God" wouldn't make sense.[/quote]Why not?You say that I "don't seem to have the first clue about God" as if there is a definitive view all people hold about god. Tell me, where can I find an expert on god? I an find you 100 other "experts" that will say that that person is an infidel or a heretic or an unbeliever.There are various religions where the gods are very "obvious" (though in different senses of the word). For example, the Greek and Roman gods are obvious in that there are pretty much human with human motivations and goals, in this sense they are very obvious. There are a variety of belief systems that don't even really have gods, this can apply to various types of Buddhism for example.[quote name='majoodah' post='4873943' date='Oct 5 2010, 02:38 PM']Faith is necessary to believe in God, because faith is what life is all about. It's about love, about hope, about trust, about belief (whether in yourself, in others or in religion). It's about friendship and honesty. All these beautiful words are gathered and wrapped up under the word faith. And I think if somebody lost faith, they'd start losing everything else. So when you say "why do you bring up faith like it's a good thing?" You need to understand that faith has so many meanings. When I believe in God, I experience all of those synonyms, and it makes me so happy. I know you too experience joy in your life, but I think it's different when you can thank God for it.[/quote]No, faith is just belief without reason.Do you really believe that people who do not have faith cannot love, does not have hope, cannot trust, and do not hold any beliefs? They cannot form friendships or communicate honestly?Do you really believe that?[quote name='majoodah' post='4873943' date='Oct 5 2010, 02:38 PM']Just because something is obvious, doesn't make it attractive. In fact, all humans have a certain pull toward mystery and the unknown. It's pretty much why we're discovering new things all the time. Sometimes, things are just more attractive when they're not so obvious.[/quote]We hold beliefs because they appeal to us on some level. By obvious, I meant that the belief is logically sounds, it can be tested and found to be true. If you want your beliefs to be true, than obviousness is appealing.There are other reasons for a belief to appeal to us. For example, a belief in god can be coupled with a belief in an immortal soul, if someone doesn't want to die, that is an appealing belief.[quote name='majoodah' post='4873943' date='Oct 5 2010, 02:38 PM']Well, so? Each have their own religion and belief. As long as they don't offend each other by being racist or treading on each other's beliefs, what does it matter? They believe in different things. And...? Everyone believes in what they know or have faith is right. If each is satisfied with their own religion then I don't see any problem here.[/quote]Because in the real world differences in belief lead to differences in action, and this has serious consequences. People kill each other over their beliefs. Religious beliefs tell people that it's okay to own slaves, or that women are worth less then men, or that god demands that you kill infidels and heretics. Certain beliefs are morally abhorrent, and religion reinforces those beliefs.Do you not think that ideally everyone will hold the same beliefs? If you believe in non-contradiction I don't see why you would wish otherwise.If we have a common systematic method designed to examine the universe, then we can arrive at the same beliefs. You might have noticed how there are very few different "sects" in any scientific field, there just isn't any disagreement because everyone had agreed to examine the evidence. This is why you don't see biologists who don't believe in evolution, they can test it for themselves and find that it is true. How do you expect the various different religions currently in existence to reconcile with each other?[quote name='majoodah' post='4873943' date='Oct 5 2010, 02:38 PM']They might have way more faith in their religions than I do (and believe me, that's alotta faith) for all I know. I believe in what I do because it's the one that I had faith was right, and they believe in what they do because it's what they had faith was right. If they thought my religion was right, they'd have followed it too, but just because they didn't, doesn't give me the right to say they're going to hell, because who the hell am I to judge them?[/quote]Of course you have the "right" to judge them. I don't see why you would think otherwise. If you think you have a choice in the matter, then withholding judgement is in itself a judgement, it's a choice that you made.I have every right to say that by believing as you do and (presumably) spreading that belief, you are making the world a worse place than it would otherwise be.Perhaps you are not "saying" that any particular person is going to hell, but do you not believe it? And if you believe it, why would you not act upon it? For example, if you think that I'm going to go to hell, why would you not work to convince me to change my beliefs or actions so that I can avoid hell? If you don't try that, than you really just aren't a very nice person (to put it mildly). [quote name='majoodah' post='4873943' date='Oct 5 2010, 02:38 PM']I'll just ignore the fact that this was a terribly unfair comparison, and go ahead and answer.Model 2 leaves me with certain question. Why did these gradual changes take place? How exactly? And others. Even if you answer those questions, your answers will arise further questions, just like everything else in life, and it would never end.Model 1, however, puts a full stop next to the answers.Of course, that's in my opinion.[/quote]You are saying that like it's a bad thing. I already mentioned earlier how god can be used to answer any question. Let me repeat yet again, people used to attribute droughts to god.Let me rephrase what you just said in that context:"Model 2 leaves me with certain question. Why did the weather patterns change? How exactly? And others. Even if you answer those questions, your answers will arise further questions, just like everything else in life, and it would never end.Model 1, however, puts a full stop next to the answers.Of course, that's in my opinion."[quote name='majoodah' post='4873943' date='Oct 5 2010, 02:38 PM']Loooool I never thought of it that way. But anyway, no I wouldn't keep saying decisions are being made. I only said that because the universe is too orderly and stable for it to have happened by coincidence. Coincidences are random. The earth doesn't in any way feel random enough (or at all, more likely) to me for it to have happened by sheer coincidence. Anyway I'll talk about this more in a similar quote.[/quote]No, the Earth is orderly, and follow predictable natural laws, but the same can be said for the rest of the universe.I don't see how the Earth is ideal though, and anthropothism is a very confused idea when you look at it like that. It's like a puddle saying that it just happens to perfectly fit into that pit in the ground.Let me put it this way. If you were suddenly to be dropped into the depths of the ocean next to a deep sea hydrothermal vent, you would alternately freeze to death or be burned to death by the steam from the vents, all while having no air and being crushed into a tiny cube by the water pressure. However, even in such an environment there is life. If the entire Earth were like that, would you use that as evidence for god? My point is, there is still life down there deep in the ocean, but if you bring it up to the surface it would die just as quickly as you would down there.The point is that life adapts to a particular environment, not that the environment is created to house life. The latter view is an extremely egocentric and confused way of looking at things.[quote name='majoodah' post='4873943' date='Oct 5 2010, 02:38 PM']Yes, that makes sense. But isn't the whole point of the sun is that it provides the earth with warmth and energy? So if we do move those thousand of miles closer, the Earth's temperature wouldn't really change? And if it did, wouldn't that be a problem?[/quote]No, thousands of miles is nothing when you look at the orbit of the Earth, it just wouldn't matter because space is huge and gravity is actually a very weak force (relative to other fundamental forces).The temperature of the Earth has changed in the past, there have been ice ages and probably a couple of impact winters even. These events tend to cause things like mass extinctions. Even the last ice age saw plenty of such extinctions (such as various human sub-species like Neanderthals, with whom homo sapiens were contemporaries). If you're talking about wiping out all life though that would take quite a bit of work since like I said different things are suited to different environments, something that would kill off all humans isn't necessarily bad from the perspective of other life forms.[quote name='majoodah' post='4873943' date='Oct 5 2010, 02:38 PM']One, my argument isn't that at all. Because, whether there's life or not, be it on Earth or on the moon, God still exists. You're making it sound as though I'm saying that because life exists, there's a God, but that's not the case. It's because God exists, that there's life.Two, "under what conditions would it show that god does not exist?". That's an interesting question."There is no logical necessity for a universe that obeys rules, let alone one that abides by the rules of mathematics. This astonishment springs from the recognition that the universe doesn't have to behave this way. It is easy to imagine a universe in which conditions change unpredictably from instant to instant, or even a universe in which things pop in and out of existence."Dinesh D'Souza, What's So Great about Christianity; (Regnery Publishing, Inc, 2007, chapter 11)If the universe was a mess, I'd be the first one to roll my eyes at somebody who says God exists. Why is that our laws of nature just never change? It's like, gravity will always be there, opposite poles of a magnet will always attract and identical ones will always repel and many other laws that are always constant. I think they universe is too orderly for it to have happened like that *snaps fingers*.[/quote]Ugh, Dinesh D'Souza is such an idiot, why are you quoting him?I mentioned this earlier in this post, but things do "pop in and out of existence", it happens all the time, ask any physicist and he or she can tell you that. Also, how does a logical universe result in god? For example, we hold things like causality and non-contradiction to be basic tools in comprehending the universe while using logic. If a particular universe doesn't follow such rules, we would just not use them.[quote name='majoodah' post='4873943' date='Oct 5 2010, 02:38 PM']First, not really, it wouldn't, because we don't need either, so where's the benefit? It'd just be surplus. I believe we're in the best form we should be in.Second, refer to my evil argument. It says all I have to say about illness.[/quote]Why not? By definition any such improvement would be a benefit. Do you really think that our flawed bodies fit better with the idea of design than it does with evolution (which doesn't care about any such flaws, unlike your proposed god).[quote name='majoodah' post='4873943' date='Oct 5 2010, 02:38 PM']I know where this is going *narrows eyes*. But whatever, I'll answer anyway. This information I got by reading my holy book and from what the prophets told us, and I learn stuff like that in school and from my parents. Kinda like ABC, you know?[/quote]If you know that this is why you hold those beliefs and you also know that others hold different beliefs for the same reason, why do you think that your belief is better?[quote name='majoodah' post='4873943' date='Oct 5 2010, 02:38 PM']Don't use that on me. Don't try and take verses out of context like so many other ignorant people do. No Abrahamic religion (or any religion that I know of), tells us it's right to kill people. What kind of person would believe in a religion that says it's right to kill people? You don't have the right to take things out of context from any book. I'm not Christian, but it would burn me as much as it would any Christian if things were quoted from their Bible and given a very twisted meaning, because I know just how that feels.No sane person says killing people is a good thing. Nobody has the right to rip away people's souls and ambitions and dreams and memories. Nobody has the right to take a person's life out of their family's or friends' lives. If I hear anyone say killing people is a good thing, whether it's someone from my religion or my best friend or sister or whatever, they'll be nothing more than vermin to me. Anybody who goes around killing people with no valid reason (e.g. defence) in the name of religion is even less than vermin because they had the nerve to bring God into their disgusting schemes.Even if death sometimes is necessary (as in a punishment or in self defence), that doesn't make it any less tragic/horrible.No matter what it you think it says in those books, do you see any sane person going around killing people? No, you don't.[/quote]That's exactly my point.People don't follow scripture, they follow social conventions and twist the scripture to meet them. There are plenty of cultures that still practice ritual sacrifice even if they don't have scripture detailing how it's to be done. How many Jews do you see practicing sacrifices even though their scriptures tell them exactly how it should be done?Thousands of years ago, people held slaves, and killed each other, and did a variety of other things that they justified with scripture. Now people no longer do that, but they still have the same holy books, so they say that others are misrepresenting it when they reference those scenes. But what you're forgetting is that people are still using scripture to reinforce evil societal conventions.For example, there is a law being discussed in Uganda that proposed executing all homosexuals, it's being backed strongly by Christians there who cite scripture. You don't see this in the US because it doesn't fit as well with US social conventions, but when it does, scripture can do great evil.[quote name='majoodah' post='4873943' date='Oct 5 2010, 02:38 PM']You were a child.I don't believe the prophets came to different answers.[/quote]I never had such thoughts since then either. And explain the second part to me please. Unless you're saying that Joseph Smith (or whoever) is a "false prophet". Then I guess you just have to give me a criteria on judging the validity of prophetic claims.[quote name='majoodah' post='4873943' date='Oct 5 2010, 02:38 PM']That's because that's not really what I'm trying to do here.Look, I'm trying my best to be as general as possible because I'm not trying to argue in favour of a certain religion, I didn't even mention my own religion, as I'm trying to simply point out why I think God exists without getting into religion because that will arise labels and other criticism that I'm sick of. If you notice my first replies they were pretty general, but as the debate got bigger, I found myself forcibly getting more and more specific, because I don't know nearly enough about other religions to keep speaking in the name of all theistic religions. I'm mostly talking about Abrahamic religions because they're the ones most followed, and the ones I know most about, as I follow one of them. Plus, they're the only religions that I know of that have possible means of communication with God, and they've been around for longer than the others. All reasons why I'm talking about them, but the main one is that I don't know enough to speak about other religions.Notice, also, that I never once mentioned that a certain religion is wrong. That's because I know that according to its believers, that religion is right, just as mine is right to me. I'm not one of those people who go around telling people what's in their hearts because that's a pile of bull ****. Nobody knows what's really in your heart other than God, I believe, and yourself. So who am I to tell people what's in their hearts?[/quote]There are plenty of religions that would fit with evolution, so by attacking that from the start (nobody raised evolution as evidence against your god after all, you mentioned it first), you are advancing certain beliefs in favor of other religious beliefs.I think it's important for people to find agreement on beliefs because beliefs are the basis of action. I don't think that religious beliefs inspire correct actions so obviously I would try to destroy religious beliefs if possible.

Edited by 38542788, 14 October 2010 - 05:33 PM.

[mario17690]

God is a human invention. When the people don't uderstand a thing or don't have the way to explain a thing the say that are product of a sobrenatural force.In resume God doesn't existGPs were deducted for this post, please read the rules! - Kiba

[Yuto]

I don't know...to be fair he defies all logic, science and logic points out that something cannot be created by nothing...however God existed before creating the universe and even life itself. It has been said he is not human nor any other manner of being except simply a spirit or spiritual form of something...It's said he existed in a black world before he created everything, except nobody even knows who or what he is or even who or how he was created...Maybe God isn't his name, maybe it's more like a title...

God is a human invention. When the people don't uderstand a thing or don't have the way to explain a thing the say that are product of a sobrenatural force.In resume God doesn't exist

As silly as that sounds, i agree. Tbh IMO God is made up. He was made to be a sort of inspiring figure that humans can relate to, if not believe in order to avoid matters they don't understand. The idea of a perfect being only gives people hope for a bright future, that is all.

I believe in religion as a way of setting a code of morals for society and keeping a group of people together with a set of beliefs.In my mind, there is no God. I believe in living life, enjoying it and being thankful for what you have.Some people feel a need to have something to believe in, something to have faith in. There's nothing wrong with that. Live life how you want to. Everybody should feel free to believe in whatever they wish without being judged or having somebody else's beliefs shoved down their throats.

Tbh you might've controdicted yourself a little there

You said in your opinion there's no God, but you said we should be thankful for where we live, but who exactly are we supposed to thank? I do agree with you on the belief others have. I feel it's just a way to help others manage with everyday life. A sorta Placibo effect, something that they think may benefit them, but what happens if it's the other way around, and people who believe are wrong. Are they then punished or forgiven?

Edited by Hyperblade Zero, 18 April 2012 - 08:03 PM.

[Yuto]

Well i do get uneasy when i talk about god or debate to myself or with others if god is real or not. But i will say this, I wont put my faith into someone i cant see because all the bad and terrible things that has happen. You dont see a godlike being saving us. So i will put faith in myself first before anyone else and i am nervous just typing this .

I don't think you should a have fear of expressing your mind. Were all human, sure we judge each other, but shouldn't you be more afraid of how ones here in a debate will judge your opinion, rather than "God" I don't think it matters. If he gave you a mind with the insight necessary for stating your opinion, then where are you wrong by his standards?

Edited by Hyperblade Zero, 18 April 2012 - 08:05 PM.

[ƵeRø]

I really Love to say everything i want about religion and about god but i guess i would just tire my hands for nothing -.- i tried to convince some1 about my religion "Islam" but it was all for nothing im gonna say one thing if you want to hear me out first watch this video made by a former christian its in english and arabic subs


And dont say anything to me unless you have watched this video

and for ppl who doesnt believe that god exists then your all so damn stupid that cant even think so tell me what made the world and what made earth in the perfect position for humans to live in? its not too far or too close to the sun and who made us or we fell from sky? or evolved from apes?? even if we did evolve from apes then who made THEM?! or they also evolved??

Edited by LightOfTheSacredFlames, 18 April 2012 - 10:03 PM.

[38542788]

and for ppl who doesnt believe that god exists then your all so damn stupid that cant even think so tell me what made the world and what made earth in the perfect position for humans to live in? its not too far or too close to the sun and who made us or we fell from sky? or evolved from apes?? even if we did evolve from apes then who made THEM?! or they also evolved??

I already responded to this multiple times in this thread, even on this page I think.

You're confusing cause and effect. The position of the Earth was fixed before humans came along. There are things that live in deep sea hydrothermal vents that live at pressures and temperatures that would instantly kill a human being. None the less, it's still on Earth. If "Earth" is so perfect for humans why didn't god just drop us all next to hydrothermal vents and see how well we do? Humans evolved to live on the surface of the planet because that was the environment available to our precursors.

[ƵeRø]

I already responded to this multiple times in this thread, even on this page I think.

You're confusing cause and effect. The position of the Earth was fixed before humans came along. There are things that live in deep sea hydrothermal vents that live at pressures and temperatures that would instantly kill a human being. None the less, it's still on Earth. If "Earth" is so perfect for humans why didn't god just drop us all next to hydrothermal vents and see how well we do? Humans evolved to live on the surface of the planet because that was the environment available to our precursors.

Im sorry but i still cant why you guys wont admit that god is real look i dont want to say too much but there are a lot of proofs about god being real but you have to be muslim and read the holy quran ok? im not gonna answer again until you have read the holy quran and you probably wont and for those who say that islam is not the correct religion then go see how many ppl from many religions have eventually became muslim

[38542788]

Im sorry but i still cant why you guys wont admit that god is real look i dont want to say too much but there are a lot of proofs about god being real but you have to be muslim and read the holy quran ok? im not gonna answer again until you have read the holy quran and you probably wont and for those who say that islam is not the correct religion then go see how many ppl from many religions have eventually became muslim

I'm not going to answer until you read a high school level bio textbook ok? And you probably won't so for those who say that the rationalism isn't the correct world view, go see how people have lost the need to believe in unverifiable supernatural deities once rationalism has pervaded a culture.

Edited by 38542788, 23 April 2012 - 03:56 AM.

[reddeath26]

Im sorry but i still cant why you guys wont admit that god is real look i dont want to say too much but there are a lot of proofs about god being real but you have to be muslim and read the holy quran ok? im not gonna answer again until you have read the holy quran and you probably wont and for those who say that islam is not the correct religion then go see how many ppl from many religions have eventually became muslim

As you yourself have identified, Islam is but one of the many different religions which exist in our world. Cross culturally and historically there have been many different cultural understandings our ourselves, the 'world' we find ourselves in, and how we relate to it. One could so easily pick one of these cultural perspectives and question how it is that you can deny it's truthfulness. Furthermore your point on diffusion leading to the validation of a cultural belief is over simplistic and misleading at best. Ethnographies looking into diffusion have demonstrated that the process is not so one sided as you propose. Rather they interpret the incoming cultural beliefs from the standpoint of their current one's and at times will modify the incoming one. Furthermore you deny such complexities as political factors and historical circumstances. Such things do not happen in a vacuum.