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#376 Guest_♠ Sucramnella

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 01:05 AM

thats all parents do is boss their children around anyways. no matter what they CALL it, the facts are that if you dont boss your kids around they get spoiled, and then ur screwed. and i would view my kids as my property, and as individuals. so dont judge me.we need to get back on topic though. abortions, not how well im going to do at being a parent.

and as individuals

And as what? Huh? An individual? Every individual has been given the right to live. That is why abortion is wrong. There ya go.
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#377 Guest_behindthenine

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 01:08 AM

And as what? Huh? An individual? Every individual has been given the right to live. That is why abortion is wrong. There ya go.

where everyone has the right to live, parents have the right to make the choice.
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#378 Guest_♠ Sucramnella

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 01:11 AM

where everyone has the right to live, parents have the right to make the choice.

Well that isn't contradictory at all. If everyone has the right to live parents shouldn't be able to murder their child.
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#379 Guest_behindthenine

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 01:16 AM

i hate to be cliche, but thats life.
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#380 Guest_♠ Sucramnella

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 01:18 AM

i hate to be cliche, but thats life.

I don't understand what that post has to do with anything.
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#381 Guest_Balore

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 01:21 AM

It's a scientifically proven fact that life begins at conception? Actually, it's a very debatable subject with no established absolutes that depends on your personal definition of what "life" is.I don't understand how anyone could possibly view something that hasn't had the chance to develop anything even remotely resembling a brain or consciousness as a human. It's merely the potential to be a human. Equating the death of a potential human to an actual human is equivalent to equating the death of a sperm cell wasted in masturbation to an actual human; they're both potential lives.

Edited by Balore, 08 September 2008 - 01:22 AM.

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#382 Guest_behindthenine

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 01:21 AM

theres nothing anyone can do about everyone having the right to live. life will go on regardless. not only do people murder all the time, but people see murder all the time, and continue living. so even if someone has an abortion, people will forgive them, and people will live on.
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#383 Guest_♠ Sucramnella

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 01:24 AM

It's a scientifically proven fact that life begins at conception? Actually, it's a very debatable subject with no established absolutes that depends on your personal definition of what "life" is.I don't understand how anyone could possibly view something that hasn't had the chance to develop anything even remotely resembling a brain or consciousness as a human. It's merely the potential to be a human. Equating the death of a potential human to an actual human is equivalent to equating the death of a sperm cell wasted in masturbation to an actual human; they're both potential lives.

Well, the cell is alive isn't it. Tell me how you can be alive yet have not life.

theres nothing anyone can do about everyone having the right to live. life will go on regardless. not only do people murder all the time, but people see murder all the time, and continue living. so even if someone has an abortion, people will forgive them, and people will live on.

Yes, people murder all the time. But do we let that pass? No. So why should the murder of a baby let go.

Edited by ♠ Sucramnella, 08 September 2008 - 01:26 AM.

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#384 Shadow

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 01:29 AM

Hah, so you are implying that you are better than me because you allow exceptions to the foundational rules that our country was built upon. The Declaration of Independence, was not put up for exceptions.

Really? Also, it sounds to me like you're implying that you're better than us. Get off your high horse and understand that breaking rules is sometimes a good thing (although I don't see any rules that a pro- abortionist is breaking, anyway).

That statement alone shows me that you have no morals. The child is an individual.

No, you have no morals. Being an individual in modern society is hard. Children don't have the mental capacity to live as "individuals" the way that adults do. Children need a nurturing environment and should gradually be weined into acting individually. Saying that a child should be treated equally to adults is careless, since children don't know enough to function properly. By the way, I'm 15 so I think I know more about this than you do, considering the fact that I'm actually living through childhood right now. No, teenagerdom is not a "transition into adulthood" or any of that BS. Any teenager who believes that they can live without their parents is a blight to society and reflects the truth that "teenagers are getting stupider."

I agree with everything except "but in the end its the persons descision." Because according to the Declaration each person was created equal and is endowed the certain inalienable rights. The right to live. So I believe it is the child's right to live and the parents are not entitled to chose for it.

If I had really f***ed up parents and you could somehow communicate with me in the womb, I would tell you to pull the plug. No child deserves to live in the hostile, inhospitable environment of a household where they aren't wanted. They end up traumatized for life and then they can't lead a normal life. No, adoption isn't the same. Everyone wants to be with their biological parents, but if the parents are so messed up, it's not possible. Adopted children always have that one thing missing from themselves.

thats all parents do is boss their children around anyways. no matter what they CALL it, the facts are that if you dont boss your kids around they get spoiled, and then ur screwed. and i would view my kids as my property, and as individuals. so dont judge me.we need to get back on topic though. abortions, not how well im going to do at being a parent.

Exactly. I have friends who are so spoiled, they just assume that they can have everything. That's because their parents didn't tell them no to anything. As much as you hate it as a kid, when you get thrown out into the world and you can't have whatever the hell you want, it hits you much harder.

And as what? Huh? An individual? Every individual has been given the right to live. That is why abortion is wrong. There ya go.

Again, rules are made to be broken (even though, once again, there have been no rules set). America did it to the British when they didn't like their set of rules, so why can't we do it to America?EDIT: Just another thing I just thought of. What happens if you "kill" the cell? Does it feel pain? How could it without a nervous system? I mean, it might be a cell and exhibit all of the functions of a cell, but surely the cell won't know that it's being killed, right? It's like saying that it's not nice to use soap because the antibacterial properties kill all of those single- celled organisms living on your skin.
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#385 Guest_Balore

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 01:29 AM

Well, the cell is alive isn't it. Tell me how you can be alive yet have not life.

The cell is in a stage of development. When a proper abortion is preformed, the potential human in question is at a stage where it lacks a consciousness or a brain capable of understanding anything significant. I don't consider that "life." I only consider a being that is consciously aware of their surroundings and able to think on their own to be a life worth enabling.
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#386 Guest_♠ Sucramnella

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 01:38 AM

The cell is in a stage of development. When a proper abortion is preformed, the potential human in question is at a stage where it lacks a consciousness or a brain capable of understanding anything significant. I don't consider that "life." I only consider a being that is consciously aware of their surroundings and able to think on their own to be a life worth enabling.

At the moment of conception a separate unique human individual, with its own genetic code, comes into existence. The conceptus is a being who is in the process of becoming. She is not a becoming who is striving toward being.

I don't see any rules that a pro- abortionist is breaking, anyway

The US Declaration of Independence clearly states that all men are created equal, and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, first and foremost the right to life.

By the way, I'm 15 so I think I know more about this than you do, considering the fact that I'm actually living through childhood right now

If only I wasn't 16... and even if I was older how would you know more than me if I had completed childhood and you were only part way through it.

Edited by ♠ Sucramnella, 08 September 2008 - 01:41 AM.

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#387 Guest_supabadman

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 01:38 AM

i didnt say adoption wasnt a choice! why do you guys keep saying that? abortion is a choice, and so is adoption! i know people that have done both.and yes, i will make a GREAT parent, when im 30. lol i dont plan on getting any kids untill i know i can take of them.and just because you have an abortion doesnt mean your a coward. it just means your not ready.and in MY life, my parents are my masters. i cant do anything about it. they have all the power, so technically, i am their property. thats the way it is with most of my friends too lol sure, you can argue with them, but that doesnt do you any good. well, it never did me any good, even if i was right.

your not ready to have a child so you would resort to killing it? wow. but to each their own opinion though :)
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#388 Guest_Balore

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 01:43 AM

At the moment of conception a separate unique human individual, with its own genetic code, comes into existence. The conceptus is a being who is in the process of becoming. She is not a becoming who is striving toward being.

Hardly a being at that stage. It'd be a lot more accurate to describe the situation as the process of a cell becoming a being. Again, though, these words, such as "life," "being," and so on, are entirely subjective.The cell hasn't had enough experience for me to label as a life, being that it has had none.

Edited by Balore, 08 September 2008 - 01:43 AM.

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#389 Shadow

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 01:44 AM

The US Declaration of Independence clearly states that all men are created equal, and endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights, first and foremost the right to life.

And? So what? Our documents are not always right. The Constitution says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ." The Board of Ed provides things for parochial schools. Clearly our rules aren't perfect. Stop supporting them like they are always the right way to live life.

your not ready to have a child so you would resort to killing it? wow. but to each their own opinion though smile.gif

He just said "I don't plan on getting any kids until I know I can take [care] of them. Putting words into other people's mouths makes your arguments look weaker.
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#390 Guest_♠ Sucramnella

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 01:47 AM

And? So what? Our documents are not always right. The Constitution says "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof . . ."

The free exercise of murder...?
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#391 Guest_Tessa Leigh

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 01:48 AM

In my choice, I'm pro-abortion. If you think otherwise good for you, my choice is my choice I have two very close friends who have had them and with that I feel its not murder, or anything else its taking something out you don't want. If they didn't want it then, why would you want them to carry it and probly just go about as if it wasen't even in there, then have it and christ knows what could happen then.
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#392 Shadow

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 01:50 AM

The free exercise of murder...?

Read the rest of it. That separation of church and state example was just that; an example. It was just to show you that even our government breaks its own rules, so you don't need to say things like "oh, you're breaking a Constitutional rule, that is totally taboo."
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#393 Guest_♠ Sucramnella

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 01:52 AM

Read the rest of it. That separation of church and state example was just that; an example. It was just to show you that even our government breaks its own rules, so you don't need to say things like "oh, you're breaking a Constitutional rule, that is totally taboo."

Rules are broken, but rules that handle the freely chosen death of a human being are not.
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#394 Shadow

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 02:07 AM

Rules are broken, but rules that handle the freely chosen death of a human being are not.

It's not a human being yet. It's just a cell that's developing. No brain, no nervous system at all. Like I said before, it's like saying that using soap is evil because it kills the microorganisms on your hands.
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#395 Guest_DeinKonig

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 03:25 AM

Read the rest of it. That separation of church and state example was just that; an example. It was just to show you that even our government breaks its own rules, so you don't need to say things like "oh, you're breaking a Constitutional rule, that is totally taboo."

It's more of a symbiotic relationship. They both help each other out. For example, our bishop's annual appeal to each diocesan church raises money for various projects INCLUDING helping poorer PUBLIC schools. Does that mean they supply crosses and tabernacles? No, it means they help pay the bills. Like I said, it goes 2 ways, that's not breaking the separation if they aren't exchanging ideas.

It's not a human being yet. It's just a cell that's developing. No brain, no nervous system at all. Like I said before, it's like saying that using soap is evil because it kills the microorganisms on your hands.

Hahaha, but soap isn't made out of human fetuses, surely you can see the difference?
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#396 Shadow

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 04:00 AM

Hahaha, but soap isn't made out of human fetuses, surely you can see the difference?

The soap is the killer in this case. They don't do abortions ON human fetuses USING human fetuses. In both cases, you're using something to kill a microorganism.Also, what do you mean "soap isn't made out of human fetuses"? Do you mean to tell me I've been making my soap the wrong way this whole time?
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#397 Guest_behindthenine

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 04:06 AM

im not trying to ruin the groove or anything, but i think i heard something about how the age of the fetus makes it living or dead. like you have to be 3 months or less to have an abortion. so that means that scientists have looked at this, and have thought that anything over 3 months is significant enough to stop the abortion from happening. please correct me if im wrong though, since im not really sure i heard this.
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#398 Guest_6SuN$Jyp)Z!.]t%G

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Posted 08 September 2008 - 10:36 PM

im not trying to ruin the groove or anything, but i think i heard something about how the age of the fetus makes it living or dead. like you have to be 3 months or less to have an abortion. so that means that scientists have looked at this, and have thought that anything over 3 months is significant enough to stop the abortion from happening. please correct me if im wrong though, since im not really sure i heard this.

How are you not "killing the groove" when you restate things like these? And there is the exception of when the mother is in danger.

Do you mean to tell me I've been making my soap the wrong way this whole time?

I laughed, and have yet to see anyone counter the argument related to the quote. A micro-organism - or any organism for that matter - is no less alive than a foetus. If you believe there to be a soul involved; please prove the existence of such and we will most certainly ban abortions except in the most horrible of scenarios (you might want to prove that none of the micro-organisms, or other organisms "unworthy of life" have souls while you're at it, or we might have to kill ourselves to prevent billions of souls from being lost).
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Posted 09 September 2008 - 03:42 AM

It's not a human being yet. It's just a cell that's developing. No brain, no nervous system at all. Like I said before, it's like saying that using soap is evil because it kills the microorganisms on your hands.

lol never thought of it that way before. perfect example though.

How are you not "killing the groove" when you restate things like these? And there is the exception of when the mother is in danger.I laughed, and have yet to see anyone counter the argument related to the quote. A micro-organism - or any organism for that matter - is no less alive than a foetus. If you believe there to be a soul involved; please prove the existence of such and we will most certainly ban abortions except in the most horrible of scenarios (you might want to prove that none of the micro-organisms, or other organisms "unworthy of life" have souls while you're at it, or we might have to kill ourselves to prevent billions of souls from being lost).

to make what hes saying easier to understand, nazer is saying that theres no proof to show that the fetus growing is alive at the point of abortion. and that it has no soul. btw: i laughed at that. ive killed trillions of micro organisms.
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#400 Guest_trumpetwiz

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Posted 11 September 2008 - 05:51 AM

Here's how I feel. Abortion is wrong. It's acceptable in some cases, but for the most part only proven rape or when the mothers life is at risk. Besides that, there are not legit reasons. If an adult isn't ready for that responsibility, they can put the child up for adoption. They should take the consecuences that come from their actions, and the avoidance is what causes the problems. Looking at it another way, how long will it be before it get's to a completely unethical point? Now it's "Only during the first trimester" but eventually, it would work its way to "Only in the first 7 months." That's how morals and ethics erode, slowly over time so the people that are being affected don't realize it. Then, from a religious perspective, it's a life given by God, or whatever your religion chooses to call him. He dosn't put life on the Earth only to never even be born. From the constitutional point of view....I'm not even gonna go there, it's been said many many times. People just need to learn self control. In the immortal words of Horton the Elephant, "A person's a person, no matter how small."
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