92 replies to this topic

[Ragamuffin]

Haha, I had a feeling you were from the Bible Belt. I was guessing either Georgia or Louisiana. Georgia's pretty relaxed with lots of friendly people form what I've seen. Louisiana...well, some of the people don't seem to take too kindly to us northerners. Still, I had fun there.

I will say one thing, though, against the hyper-Biblical-- it's not required to be moral. I have no faith in God (again, not in an antagonistic way, just a "I need concrete proof to commit" way) but even I know killing other people is wrong. I know what I see, in other words, and though there may or may not be a God in the sky, my loved ones dying still makes me feel very sad, perhaps even moreso, as I don't have the luxury of believing my loved ones are in heaven, they are instead dead husks of rotting flesh in the ground, one of which all of us, myself included, will be one day. This thought is TRULY horrifying, but I can't make myself believe in something I can't stand on 100%, not even to comfort myself.

Yeah, I remember back when, at a parent's funeral, all my relatives were making themselves feel better by saying "she's in a better place now" and I said, "you have no way of knowing that". Everyone, including the agnostics and atheists in my family got upset. In hindsight maybe I should've just nodded and agreed, but I've never been good at doing that. Point is, I get why people want to feel like there's something more after death, and who knows, maybe there is, but I don't need God or religion for me to consider the possibility, however much I may doubt it. Heh, maybe I should study metaphysics a bit more.

[skulhedface]

I have my beliefs, but I've always felt respectful to others' beliefs, even if mine are well known and contradict theirs. Maybe it's because I don't like rocking the boat unless necessary, and a family funeral isn't the place to tell grieving people that their loved one is worm food, not an angel. It agonized me for MONTHS when my mother died because I thought this way, and trust me, it's a CRIPPLING fear when you apply that train of thought to survivors. My father is still alive, I'm married and I have a son (and soon, a daughter). Thinking these things towards them is horrifying. It's usually when those thoughts hit I try to drown it out with reading or videogames or something. Not saying I'm right and you're wrong, I just don't like stirring the pot if I don't need to. At a funeral, people are trying to find comfort however they can. Whether I agree or not, I won't fault them for it unless it meant they started pulling out voodoo instruments to resurrect them or some jerks from the Phelps church protested it or something...I, like you, can see why it's comforting to believe in something after death. Like I said, I spend time in crippling fear thinking that my relatives long gone are no longer in existence except as worm food, and Heaven is an easy answer that provides solace. I may be able to handle it being unlike that, but I can't begrudge someone needed comfort. I am a softhearted human, after all, for better or worse. I had jerky beliefs, but I kept my jerkiness to myself.

[Ragamuffin]

Well, it's not like I meant to get anyone upset, it was more my way of letting them know that they were wasting their time trying to comfort me with all that "she's in a better place" stuff. All it did was make me think that these people thought I couldn't handle a cold, simple fact. In hindsight, I suppose they were doing it more for themselves than anyone else, but I was a kid so I really didn't put much thought into it beforehand. At later funerals, I pretty much just went through the motions.I don't know, I've always been brutally honest about my opinions with people, for better or worse. In my mind, to tell someone a comforting lie is like telling them you don't respect them. Of course, now that I'm an adult, I try putting it a bit more nicely.I mean, the fact that I'm going to rot in the ground one day doesn't bother me in the least. I figure that when I die, it's not like I'm going to know that I'm dead, and it happens to everybody, so why worry? I understand that it can take a lifetime for some people to come to that mindset, but to me, accepting that you only have a very limited time in this world is all the motivation needed to live life to the fullest, as they say.

[skulhedface]

Agreed 100%. Death does scare the living daylights out of me because well, I love existing, and the thought that an end to that existence is not only inevitable but unpredictible is terrifying, but it also does encourage one to live as full a life as one can. And I didn't mean to insinuate that you were insulting anybody. I just was always conscious of other people's feelings, even to the expense of my own. I dunno, I've always been (much to my disadvantage, sometimes) the type to put others' needs before my own. Not that I've ever been a bulls--ter, I have been honest, but I held my tongue for the sake of sparing someone's feelings if need be.Motions, as you put it, are unnecessary for me. In fact, due to my mindset, funerals are THAT much more depressing.

[Ragamuffin]

I agree that people should just respect each others' beliefs as long as they're not infringing on any other person's, but that's obviously a very slippery slope. Subjects like abortion, having "In God we trust" on U.S. currency, and teaching the Bible (in a literary sense) or evolution in schools are some examples of this.The fact that you say that Atheists are generally more knowledgeable about religion than theists makes sense to me, yet at the same time it doesn't. There's the type that googles "contradictions of the Bible" and call themselves experts on the subject, and then you got the type of Atheist who gets so wrapped up in hating religion (let's be honest, Christianity) that they become completely obsessed with it. However, I don't think that many atheists see the actual faith involved with religion, many just see contradicting facts and like to use religious extremism as examples of the norm (for ex. a religious nutjob bombs an abortion clinic, therefore all religious types must agree). Many just dismiss faith as "stupid", and for being such free-thinkers, that's a really small-minded way of looking at it.As usual though, the same applies on the other side of the fence. I can't even count how many times I've had someone tell me that I'm "morally bankrupt" because I don't believe in their specific version of right and wrong, or use the "Hitler was an Atheist, y'know" argument (despite the fact that I'm not an Atheist, but it's all the same to some types).

[skulhedface]

I've heard that Hitler was an atheist just as often as I've heard Hitler was a Christian. So what? He was white, as well. Are all white people evil? He had a mustache. Are all mustached people evil? He lived in Germany. Are all Germans evil? No. It's a stupid point, and it does nothing but mudsling by association.I think atheists are handicapped by lack of imagination. Faith is there for the religious, only cold hard logic and fact is there for the atheist. The thing is, things like common sense fall under logic, and common sense, to paraphrase the joke, isn't really all that common. Otherwise, the Darwin Awards would be out of business. Some atheists are so blinded by this that they lose what most middle ground people have-- a faith to help guide them, rather than a fanaticism to ruin all. I'm not saying atheists are horrible because they don't have faith, but rather, they're making a decision based on only what they can touch, smell, see and hear. To quote a somewhat terrible song, that's less than one millionth or reality. So could God exist in that 999,999/1,000,000th of reality? Possibly. We may know someday, or we may never know. But hardline atheists are stuck because they don't get beyond 1/1,000,000th of reality. Then again, religious folks who fanaticize about their faith are worse in my book, as a God who specifically said "Thou Shalt Not Kill" is having atrocities committed in his name left and right, based on assumption.

[Ragamuffin]

The funny thing about hardline Athiests is that many seem to forget that the big bang theory and the original theory of evolution were started by theists, and that neither of them disprove the possible existence of God. Even a few renowned scientists have claimed to believe in a God or some other higher order of being.Zealots though...yeah. The types that twist their religion's scripture to justify their actions not only give other followers a bad name, but also convince some other otherwise harmless fanatics to join their cause. I mean, look at the whole God Hates Fags movement, I can't even begin to count how many ways they're not only being self-defeating, but going against their own book.

[skulhedface]

I almost hope there is a Hell, just so the Phelps clan can be in it. Although one wonders to which extent his flock actually believes the BS rhetoric, or just does it to keep their faces in the news. And you almost can't blame them; as a congregation of seventy in the Middle Of Nowhere, Kansas is internationally known.I wanted to post about that, but I think I've said all I want to say about atheism in general. Suffice it to say that, like religion, I have no problem with middle of the roaders, or even devout on either side of the fence. It's only when those beliefs turn into a tunnel of ignorance that a problem begins.

[Klokinator]

I was born into a very strict uncaring cult-like religion. (The Jehovah's Witnesses) They put so many mindblocks on thinking for myself that I sometimes didn't know whether something simple was right or wrong to do. (For example, like whether to attend a funeral of one of my relatives who was not a JW.)Sometime a few months ago I got out of that pathetic excuse for a religion and I am now... well I'd like to say an atheist. But the truth is, if Jesus or god actually spoke to me from heaven and told me "You must go on a path of righteousness and this is what you must do" I'D DO IT! The problem is there is no real living evidence that god does or does not exist, other than 2,000+ year old documents like the bible and such. These were written by a primitive people who likely believed the Earth was the center of the universe and that the worl was flat and that god lived up in the clouds!Religion says they have all the answers, and if you just follow them you'll recieve the lawdy lawdy and you'll live forever either in heaven or in hell or wherever else. However other than the dogma they preach... there is no real evidence and that is why I choose to be an atheist. At least I'm not knocking on doors anymore and slapping people with the bible and telling them what awful sinners they are!

[Ragamuffin]

Religion says they have all the answers, and if you just follow them you'll recieve the lawdy lawdy and you'll live forever either in heaven or in hell or wherever else.

That's quite a blanketed statement you're making there. First, not all religions claim to have all the answers and second, not all religions believe in heaven and/or hell.

However other than the dogma they preach... there is no real evidence and that is why I choose to be an atheist.

To be fair, there's no evidence that there isn't a God, either.

At least I'm not knocking on doors anymore and slapping people with the bible and telling them what awful sinners they are!

Again with making blanketed statements. Do you really think that all Catholics/Chirstians go around "slapping people with the Bible"? Most that I know keep their religion to themselves and other like-minded people. Also, how come I never hear an Atheist talk about Islam or Buddhism? Every Atheist I've ever encountered brings up Christianity and maybe Judaism, but hardly ever any other religion.

[Klokinator]

That's quite a blanketed statement you're making there. First, not all religions claim to have all the answers and second, not all religions believe in heaven and/or hell.To be fair, there's no evidence that there isn't a God, either.Again with making blanketed statements. Do you really think that all Catholics/Chirstians go around "slapping people with the Bible"? Most that I know keep their religion to themselves and other like-minded people. Also, how come I never hear an Atheist talk about Islam or Buddhism? Every Atheist I've ever encountered brings up Christianity and maybe Judaism, but hardly ever any other religion.

You have missed something apparently. Like I said, I was in the religion/cult of Jehovah's Witnesses. I don't recall saying Catholics at all in fact. JW's do not believe in hell period. (Therefore I obviously know some religions don't believe in hell...) The point is that almost all if not all religions preach about some sort of afterlife reward be it heaven/hell/resurrection/limbo/etc etc. (Except possibly scientology but everyone knows that's not even a real religion just stupidity >.> especially since Tom Cruise believes in it)JW's do NOT keep their religion to themselves, they throw it at people all the time, and when they find a potential convert, they suddenly soften and begin the love bombing process.As I said there's no evidence there is a god. BUT BUT BUT if someday God/Jesus/Holy Ghost or Spirit/Buddha spoke from the heavens to me and told me they were real and to go on a life path of goody goodyness then so be it, I will! What better evidence would there be? I refuse to rely on a 2,000 year old document that was written by an ancient people many of whom believed the sun was a supernatural being, when in fact science has proven that it is just a tremendous ball of gas and fire.Please if you're going to quote me take my whole response into context and not just the part that supports you. The sad part is when you quoted me saying this:

Religion says they have all the answers, and if you just follow them you'll recieve the lawdy lawdy and you'll live forever either in heaven or in hell or wherever else.

And yet after "refuting" my answer you failed to notice:

Religion says they have all the answers, and if you just follow them you'll recieve the lawdy lawdy and you'll live forever either in heaven or in hell or wherever else.

Obviously I was not just referring to heaven and hell, but to many other after-death rewards. You'll have to forgive me if I don't list them all as the list is very exhaustive and humans have thought of pretty much every way to cheat death there is.

At least I'm not knocking on doors anymore and slapping people with the bible and telling them what awful sinners they are!

Anymore: Meaning I used to do it and now do not. I am not referring to other religions, I am referring to me myself and I, and what I used to do.

Edited by Klokinator, 28 December 2010 - 12:17 AM.

[Ragamuffin]

You have missed something apparently. Like I said, I was in the religion/cult of Jehovah's Witnesses. I don't recall saying Catholics at all in fact. JW's do not believe in hell period. The point is that almost all if not all religions preach about some sort of afterlife reward be it heaven/hell/resurrection/limbo/etc etc. (Except possibly scientology but everyone knows that's not even a real religion just stupidity >.> especially since Tom Cruise believes in it)

Yeah, I know you brought up JW, but you also mentioned hell in your previous post. Given that JWs do not believe in hell, coupled with referencing the Bible and no specific religion led me to believe that you were making a reference to Catholicism, since they're (in)famous for preaching about how we're all sinners and going to hell. Sorry for the assumption.As an aside, not everyone "knows" that about Scientology, otherwise it wouldn't have a following. Also, what is your definition of a "real" religion?

JW's do NOT keep their religion to themselves, they throw it at people all the time, and when they find a potential convert, they suddenly soften and begin the love bombing process.

Haha, I'm glad to hear a former JW say that. I seemed to be a magnet for the door-to-door and on the street converters. I used to actually talk to them about theology when I had the time and patience, but most would just say something like, "you can't see the wind, but you believe in it, right?!?"I remember hearing that JWs use how many people they've converted as a measure of to how close they are to going to heaven. Is there any truth in that?

As I said there's no evidence there is a god. BUT BUT BUT if someday God/Jesus/Holy Ghost or Spirit/Buddha spoke from the heavens to me and told me they were real and to go on a life path of goody goodyness then so be it, I will! What better evidence would there be? I refuse to rely on a 2,000 year old document that was written by an ancient people many of whom believed the sun was a supernatural being, when in fact science has proven that it is just a tremendous ball of gas and fire.

Yeah, I'm not saying that any literal interpretation of God is correct, but just because a book can't explain something, doesn't necessarily make it false. Have you ever heard of the idea of technological singularity? Basically, it states that once an artificial intelligence surpasses our level of intelligence, that human beings couldn't possibly predict its actions, since we wouldn't be able to comprehend the thoughts of a mind more advanced than our own. I figure that if a creator did exist, that it'd have to be much more advanced than a human, and that trying to understand it or "find" it are futile acts. Something like that could be completely imperceptible to us, or exist on a whole other level of being, kind of like how we are compared to non-sentient creatures. Personally, I don't believe that a supposed omnipotent being would spend all its time worrying about the affairs of a single planet, assuming one exists at all. If there was/is a creator(s), it'd be pretty narcissistic to think that it cared about us and only us, or that it cared about whether we worshiped it or not, you know? So, I look at it like that and find it pretty hard to care one way or the other, because it's not going to change anything in my life.Of course, there's the school of thought that "God" is real in the sense that the very thought of it is enough to change a person's actions...but that's a whole other wall of text.

Please if you're going to quote me take my whole response into context and not just the part that supports you. The sad part is when you quoted me saying this:And yet after "refuting" my answer you failed to notice: [wherever else]

I did take your whole response into context, but terms such as "wherever else" are non-descriptive and don't amount to much, especially when you didn't bother differentiating between religions in the last portion your post.

Obviously I was not just referring to heaven and hell, but to many other after-death rewards. You'll have to forgive me if I don't list them all as the list is very exhaustive and humans have thought of pretty much every way to cheat death there is.

It's not so obvious when you use generalizations such as "religion", directly reference heaven and hell, then attempt to differentiate with a term such as "wherever else".@bolded text: There is no way for a person to be aware of what hasn't been thought of by other people yet, otherwise it'd have been thought of by that person.@edit: That doesn't change the fact that the first part of that paragraph was poorly written. I could explain just how, but you're doing a good enough job at being snide for the both of us. ;D

[Klokinator]

[quote]Yeah, I know you brought up JW, but you also mentioned hell in your previous post. Given that JWs do not believe in hell, coupled with referencing the Bible and no specific religion led me to believe that you were making a reference to Catholicism, since they're (in)famous for preaching about how we're all sinners and going to hell. Sorry for the assumption.[/quote]Apology accepted [quote]As an aside, not everyone "knows" that about Scientology, otherwise it wouldn't have a following. Also, what is your definition of a "real" religion?[/quote]Lol good point. To me a real religion at the very least has some sort of actual proof that its teachings are worth looking into. JW's are a "real" religion because they quote from the bible, a highly regarded book of ancient historical value. If god were to exist obviously some of the oldest documents on earth would have the potential to explain how to follow him or whatever else is of importance regarding him. (Her?) As for scientology... well there's one very reliable source that easily explains how Scientology got its start. http://www.southpark...d-in-the-closet <<<<< Hee hee I made a funny.[quote]Haha, I'm glad to hear a former JW say that. I seemed to be a magnet for the door-to-door and on the street converters. I used to actually talk to them about theology when I had the time and patience, but most would just say something like, "you can't see the wind, but you believe in it, right?!?"[/quote]Interesting fact: JWs have the lowest member retention ratio of any religion on the planet! Only 37% of members born into the religion or who convert stay for their whole lives. I am not in that 37% ratio, fortunately, and never will go back either. The mind control is just awful. Incidentally, clicky here. http://www.quotes-watchtower.co.uk/[quote]I remember hearing that JWs use how many people they've converted as a measure of to how close they are to going to heaven. Is there any truth in that?[/quote]Ahhhh... not entirely sure what you mean... JW's believe that only 144,000 people will go to heaven, and the rest of us mere mortals will live forever on a paradise earth. The absurdity however is fantastically ridiculous. The famous JW pastor Charles T. Russel once gave a famous speech entitled: "Millions now living will never die!"...... that was over 80 years ago..... where are these millions, if not at least thousands...? Lol.[quote]Yeah, I'm not saying that any literal interpretation of God is correct, but just because a book can't explain something, doesn't necessarily make it false. Have you ever heard of the idea of technological singularity? Basically, it states that once an artificial intelligence surpasses our level of intelligence, that human beings couldn't possibly predict its actions, since we wouldn't be able to comprehend the thoughts of a mind more advanced than our own. I figure that if a creator did exist, that it'd have to be much more advanced than a human, and that trying to understand it or "find" it are futile acts. Something like that could be completely imperceptible to us, or exist on a whole other level of being, kind of like how we are compared to non-sentient creatures.[/quote]That's why I don't really care if god does or does not exist. I intend to live my life richly and not cower behind some religious organization like the JW's and let them run me. My reasons for not lauding the great god in the sky are varied and extensive though, mind you, but I just don't feel like going into it at the moment.[quote]Personally, I don't believe that a supposed omnipotent being would spend all its time worrying about the affairs of a single planet, assuming one exists at all. If there was/is a creator(s), it'd be pretty narcissistic to think that it cared about us and only us, or that it cared about whether we worshiped it or not, you know? So, I look at it like that and find it pretty hard to care one way or the other, because it's not going to change anything in my life.[/quote]I always wondered about that too. There's like an infinity of planets out there in this massive universe, and I'm guessing a 100% chance that there's at least ONE other planet with life on it. Why would this great god make a bunch of nothing except for one teeny tiny little speck and then confine its inhabitants to that teeny tiny speck? At some point expanding to other planets would have to happen as our population would need to grow and grow! (Of course, JW's I've discussed this with say that after a thousand years or so in paradise, god will cut off our need for children and we will all live forever... happily... doing NOTHING. WTF.)[quote]Of course, there's the school of thought that "God" is real in the sense that the very thought of it is enough to change a person's actions...but that's a whole other wall of text.[/quote]To me god is nothing more than a way to accomplish two key things:God serves as a way to avoid blame. "I got in a car wreck because I didn't rely on god!" And as a way to delegate greatness. "I won the game because I had faith in god!"And god also serves as a way to avoid the terrible terrible thought of our own mortality, and to expect something epic to happen when we die. Whatever happened to personal choices and accepting the inevitable?[quote]I did take your whole response into context, but terms such as "wherever else" are non-descriptive and don't amount to much, especially when you didn't bother differentiating between religions in the last portion your post.[/quote]I'm sorry about that, really I am. I thought you understood I was talking about JW's specifically and only JW's. As for mentioning hell... I didn't figure you knew too much about them but I guess you know at least enough to know they don't believe in hell. Since hell and heaven are what the main branches of mainstream christianity teach I figured that they would be a more appropriate euphamism.[quote]It's not so obvious when you use generalizations such as "religion", directly reference heaven and hell, then attempt to differentiate with a term such as "wherever else".[/quote]Again, my bad.[quote]@bolded text: There is no way for a person to be aware of what hasn't been thought of by other people yet, otherwise it'd have been thought of by that person.[/quote]Youre right, let me rephrase. People have thought up a TON of different ways to avoid the thought of death, and ways to live after dying. That sounds better I think.[quote]@edit: That doesn't change the fact that the first part of that paragraph was poorly written. I could explain just how, but you're doing a good enough job at being snide for the both of us. ;D[/quote]Hey that's not nice. I will smack you if I have to.

[Yuto]

People just assume all atheists are monsters, that's outlandish and completely untrue. To be fair there are first two sides to everything, so if there are those who believe in God...then there will be those who don't, and so on. So It's ok to bash any random atheist. However, professional men and women who are devoted to the theory of evolution can also be associated with atheistic views, yet nobody has a problem with them, which IMO is wrong. I personally believe(No Offense) that people choose to believe, because it gives them comfort, or the idea of safety. People say atheist are afraid of dying and the unknown, but that couldn't be farther from the truth. The truth is people who believe in "God" have more doubts than the people who don't. I myself have been moving between the ideas of both atheist and agnostic, both of which fasinate me. It may be pure ignorant or whatever, but i think it's wrong to completely believe in a "higher power", without real meaning or truth behind any of it. IMO the bible is nothing more than a book full of chicken scratch, something to keep us "humans" in line. It's meant to scare us. Sure "God" wants nothing but the best for all of us, but there are laws that God made that others easily dismiss, and they still believe there's redemption in that.

Edited by Hyperblade Zero, 18 April 2012 - 07:04 PM.