77 replies to this topic

[Ragamuffin]

There has been many talks about clones not having souls and a personality, yet have anyone ever wondered do we really have souls?

The closest I believe to be a soul is our consciousness.

the clone itself would have a conscious if they had a functional brain, if they began to have the time to think they would also imply that they have souls because they are conscious.

There's always the argument that clones could be engineered to not be self-aware, eliminating the issue of individual higher thought. Or they could be controlled by an A.I. or neural network of sorts and just possess a human cloned body, but that's a whole other debate.

clones of course would have a similar physical make up, but then mentally, they did not experience everything the original has, so it is impossible for the clone to have the same memories or think the same exact way, due to the fact that our memories is our experience that we accumulate through a lifetime that makes us who we are. if we want to transfer our consciousness into the clone's brain it would not be a simple matter because of the fact that the brain develops accordingly to how you grow.

True, and adding to experiences, our brains are all uniquely "wired" and as of now, cannot be duplicated. There have been talks about mind uploading and consciousness reproduction, and combining that with cloning as a way to cheat death, but how would anybody know if it actually works?Let's say the year is 2065, and I'm getting old and am about to die. Well, I have some extra money so maybe I'll have myself cloned and have my consciousness, along with everything I have ever experienced uploaded into a data bank. Who is to say that when my experiences are transferred into the clone that I'll still be me, rather than a whole new being who happens to be aware of all my experiences and thought patterns?

also why do people think clones don't have feelings?

I've never heard or read about anybody saying that.

they are also humans and if left to develop they can also develop feelings, feelings are not limited to humans only, have you ever read "in the shadow of men" by Jane Goodall? it clearly shows that even chimps have feelings, what about dolphins? they clearly are smart. think about your pet when its angry it sulks and when sad the dog has a droopy tail. those are all feelings don't think that humans are the only things with a consciousness and have feelings. we humans just have a more powerful thought process then other animals and more sophisticated thinking.

Keep in mind that having feelings and being self-aware are two different things. Yes, chimps are self-aware and according to many studies, so are dolphins. Self-awareness in dogs is disputed in the scientific community, but it has been suggested that they're not as smart as we give them credit for, they're just really good at taking emotional cues from humans.

cloning for organs is really a ethical problem like the many other people ahead of me have said.

Not if just the organs themselves are cloned.

if we grew up in a environment where people are socialized to think that humans are easily replaceable and that human lives are not valuable then this wouldn't be a ethical question. but we are not socialized like that, at birth we learn as a child that lives should be valued and people are irreplaceable, along with the fact that most of our teachings have been influenced by religion, we start to see people as valuable and killing another clone, which is also another life, becomes a evil thing. I am not saying human lives aren't valuable, because i too have been raised in this society. then what about the animals we eat everyday? if we were socialized to believe that they are sacred then killing one of them would also be unethical.

Yeah, many are raised to believe that their version of right and wrong is the only version, so no matter what ethical road you try to take, it's always going to offend somebody.Personally, I have no problem with cloning individual organs, or even cloning non-sentient/pre-programmed humans for labor or what have you, but I know that many people would disagree. However, I also feel that if a human clone is self-aware in the same sense as a natural born person, then it should be awarded the same freedoms as one.Also, not to nitpick, but could you space out your paragraphs a bit? Posting a wall of text like you did deters people from reading your post. Good first post, though, and welcome.

[kriogenik]

if we grew up in a environment where people are socialized to think that humans are easily replaceable and that human lives are not valuable then this wouldn't be a ethical question. but we are not socialized like that, at birth we learn as a child that lives should be valued and people are irreplaceable, along with the fact that most of our teachings have been influenced by religion, we start to see people as valuable and killing another clone, which is also another life, becomes a evil thing. I am not saying human lives aren't valuable, because I too have been raised in this society. Then what about the animals we eat every day? If we were socialized to believe that they are sacred then killing one of them would also be unethical.

one of the most common ethical value in the whole world is and has been for a very long time the one that states that killing another human being is wrong. That said i do believe you are right in the point that if we were raised believing that humans were expendable and not valuable we would have no ethical problems. Although I believe the empathy we feel for other living being in general would not be suppressed and still would be stronger when dealing with the suffering of other like ourselves.Human cloning would be indeed very welcome if it was for medical purposes as well as if used for the preservation of superior genomes with tendencies to generate for example an individual with increased logical appititude, or one with a enhanced stamina compared to others...I don’t rule out the possible bad uses of this technology, the plane wasn’t invented to drop bombs and have machineguns in them but still we(as in humanity) used them for that, almost all technologies can be used in unethical ways but no technology is inherently bad or unethical, the uses we make of them are the key point.

[grshen80]

We just recently had a debate on this, and personally I'm all for it being wrong. It doesn't really agree with the moral standards of this Earth, as well as showing itself when cloning animals extremely defective. There have been lots of cloning of animal cells, like therapeutic cloning and reproductive cloning, which both fall under human cloning.It's also very much a stupid idea to me to clone, because that would just be giving certain countries more ammunition (to make the "perfect" people) against others. Also - doesn't the world already have enough people without more clones? I do admit that cloning certain cells may help though, because I'm not /aware/ of any consequences against this, though there may be some.

[Ragamuffin]

While I'll never know what its like to be on the receiving end of racism [...]

I liked your response to that guy, but I have to ask; why do you feel that you could never be on the receiving end of racism?

There is NO reason what-so-ever to clone humans. We have no gain from it, we suffer from overpopulation as it is. There's also too many cons in order for it to be worth it.Pros: May be able to create humans immune to certain diseases (even this is meh)

You say there's no reason, yet you state one in the next sentence. :awesome:It also seems that some people are forgetting that not entire humans need to be cloned. What about growing individual organs for transplants?

It is not a good idea,but it is not a bad idea. I don't know. well, I think it depends on if you need human cloning.

This is the debate forum, get an opinion or GTFO.

[skulhedface]

I've talked at length on this topic a long time ago, but I can refresh my opinion on it. First, I want to address one thing that's come up since then. Another poster mentioned not knowing what being on the receiving end of racism is like. Sadly, racism still permeates culture. Groups such as the KKK still exist, but on the other side of the coin, have you listened to stand-up comedy on BET? Yeah, it can be funny, but it's also just as racist. I do not think that just because a minority uses it, it makes a racial slur OK. These are hateful words created for a hateful purpose, and whether you're a minority or not, it's still racism. We will not be rid of racism until we are all TRULY equal, not in a stage where you get a pass to do (subtle racist act A) because you're in a minority. Likewise, the majority needs to get under their skin that race doesn't matter. What is skin color? It has nothing to do with how you act, unless you let it influence how you act, in cases such as the KKK or the Black Panthers.Getting back on topic, I'm not against human cloning on a small scale, where only organs are duplicated, because it's a miraculous medical breakthrough. No one will have to be on an organ waiting list again; lifetimes of anti-rejection drugs will no longer be required, and people who've lost something essential to a normal life, be it a limb, their liver, or even heart cells or brain cells due to heart attack and stroke could have those replaced. I don't know about you, but if I'd had a heart attack which damaged my heart, but they could regrow the damaged, irreplacable cells to give me my full ability back, without the downside of antirejection meds or such, I'm all for it.Cloning an entire person? That's where I draw the line. Physically, there's nothing wrong, but the idea of what it is philosopically is horrifying. It's you, yet it's not you at the same time. You could say it's like having a child, but no it's not-- a child is a part of you, but it's still a whole different person. A clone is you in every way except your life experience. To have two 'you's, where do 'you' end and 'he' begin, even though they're both you? If you die, he's still there, but he's a clone of you, therefore you're not 'really' dead. Except you are. I don't believe in a soul outright, but I do believe in uniqueness, and to be cloned is to completely lose your uniqueness. Remember, there's now the original 'you' and a duplicate 'you'. You die, the clone doesn't... you're still alive, technically, because he is, but you're still dead. Someone is living your life (rightfully, as other than being the original, he IS you) and your life goes on living without you. This is a horrifying thought to me. Apply it to me this way-- even though my clone is me, I wouldn't want to be dead in the ground while someone who is me (but not the original me, here typing this sentence) is sleeping with my wife, raising my kids, taking care of my family, and the family itself doesn't care because to THEM, I'm still there, but to me, well, I'm dead. Replaced. ERASED.Unless it's, in reality, no different than having a twin. Which, if you drop the metaphysical and philosophical parts I just discussed, is technically true...

[dffhkhksg]

Cloning doesn't mean we need to clone the ENTIRE human. How about we just clone vital organs? Therefore the organs would be a part of you, just they aren't attached to you and could be used whenever you need them. The organ wouldn't be self aware nor would it feel anything.I believe that brain cloning or a full clone would be wrong. What use would it serve apart from cruelty?

it's definitely a big NO for mei don't agree in all of this human cloning idea, it's just as if, we're trying to "make" human, which means it's almost like opposing Godi agree in animal and plant cloning, but in human? not at allGPs were deducted for this post, please read the rules! - tedsb16

Wow? Are plants and animals somehow beneath us? Sure, maybe we are better than they are, but that doesn't mean we can treat them differently from ourselves (except in feeding (impractical) or other needs that differ from our own)

Edited by dffhkhksg, 26 February 2011 - 08:50 PM.

[darkmagil]

i think that cloning is one of the best idea ever but region is stopping the human progress to the future because "its against god" which is dumb because we have many religions in almost every countries so it just doesn't make sense it makes me really mad>GPs were deducted for this post, please read the rules! - tedsb16