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Who the hell would believe in evolution???


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#601 Guest_nelson89

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 02:23 AM

truthfully I dont see why this debate is open, a debate about evolution quite often leads to religious matters, which leads to fights...which is actually kind of stupid because the majority of all religions are based on peace anyway

Ha, and isn't that the great irony of it all. I'd say it would lead more to the whole "Science VS Religion" debate....which still hasn't been resolved, so if we were able to solve it....haha i highly doubt that will be happening in a public forum. The point is although it may be science, it's still a belief that many hold, and in attacking ones beliefs, you're always going to end up with fights...despite the fact that most religions preach acceptance as well....

Edited by nelson89, 29 December 2007 - 02:23 AM.

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#602 Guest_acsank

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 06:43 AM

Evolution is actually incredibly simple and logical. I hold that most people who oppose it simply don't understand the basics.It works like this.Assumption A:Traits from one generation are passed onto the next.Assumption B: Some mutation occurs periodically.Assumption C:Certain traits are more likely to result in an individual reproducing than others.If all three of the previous assumptions are accepted, then evolution is the only logical conclusion.Periodically, in a species, certain members will develop certain traits that make them more likely to survive/reproduce than others. These traits are then more likely to be passed on to subsequent generations. Therefore, over time, the species will evolve such that the trait becomes natural, rather than a mutation.Now, it's impossible to prove that God DIDN'T create the world 6000 years ago, but even if he did, if the above three criteria are accepted, evolution will eventually occur regardless.
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#603 Guest_-Prime-

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Posted 29 December 2007 - 11:33 AM

I'm not too sure about macro evolution, but micro evolution is definitely happening

Of course macro evolution is happening, perhaps you don't understand how LONG it takes. Luckily I found the PERFECT video to explain it to you all who don't believe in macro evolution hereMacro Evolution. Yea sure the guy who made is a bit lame, but he gets to the point nonetheless. ENJOY
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#604 Guest_Useless Bob

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Posted 31 December 2007 - 12:58 AM

Although I do believe in evolution, there is always the question, where did it come from in the start. Sure, large species evolved from smaller ones, which evolved from unicellular organisms and whatnot, but what was the source of all of that?
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#605 Guest_BillDoor

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Posted 31 December 2007 - 07:28 AM

UselessBob: The problem of where the first life came from is called the Abiogenesis Problem; it's not really a component of evolutionary theory.It's a tough problem, though. One possibility is that the first things that could reproduce were simple molecules. There's evidence that RNA existed before DNA, and that, long ago, RNA molecules both stored information and acted as enzymes. But that's not a proof.
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#606 Guest_avatarxprime

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Posted 01 January 2008 - 12:38 AM

I only just finished highschool and the way i understand the whole evolution theory is that yes every particular creature on earth is evolved from another through survival of the fittest. The reason we're not finding millions of different fossils explaining the millions of variations of species is for 2 reasons, it is by pure chance that an animal fossilizes in that it needs the perfect conditions etc, same reason for why diamonds are rare to find, unless the conditions are ideal for an extended period of time, it is highly unlikely something will fossilize.

There is also the fact that the fossils must be preserved. An earthquake here, tsuname there, the occasional volcanic explosion and all those precious fossils are reduced to dust. Let us not forget that some things do not fossilize as well. Many early organisims had nothing hard enough to fossilize and therefore don't leave remains behind. For most of these we rely on even rarer impressions, fossilized images of a by-gone organisim left behind in some rock.

The 2nd reason is that the idea of evolution is slight changes due to environmental factors, deformities etc etc over generations, but who's to say that one particular primary species isn't able to produce any number of deformities to carry on into generations later so that it contributes to many secondary species? I mean, horses and rhino's are related, so are humans and chimps. The whole point of scientific classification is to track similarities between different creatures and plants and classify them accordingly, but if life itself was such a rare occurance, then wouldn't the sheer number of similarities between these different life forms become even rarer? At some point we need to accept that not EVERYTHING is coincidence, in the case of evolution, considering it all as mere coincidence seems to me like someone is trying desperately to deny one of the few theories about life that might actually be onto something

First off let me say that your reasoning there is faulty. Classification tracks similarities between organisms because based on the theory of evolution, everything came from some ancestor until eventually you reach a singular ancestor to whom every currently existing creature can trace their existence. It's no coincidence, it's a fully known consequence of the theory. We can even look at it in smaller groups. Take the "mitochondrial Eve" and the "Y gene Adam" (before any Creationists get excited, please note these are not the Biblical Adam and Eve).All humans receive their mitochondria from their mothers (although rare cases exist where you get a subset of your mitochondria from your father) and all males receive their Y sex gene from their mothers. So, tracing back as some point a single woman existed from whom all people currently alive can trace their mitochondrial DNA, the same is true for all men currently alive and their Y sex gene. Awhile back the discovery chanel did a special on both people, tracing ancestry down to a time period and location (note that "Adam" and "Eve" where never alive at the same time), don't remember the first but the second was Africa. Also these conditions are flexible. Say all women on the Earth died except for your mother (and if you have sisters them too). Your mother is now the "mitochondrial Eve" because all future humans on the planet will be able to trace their ancestry to her. The same thought experiment works for "Adam" too. Imagine all men except for your father (and if you have brothers them too) died, now all future males will be able to trace their ancestry to your father making him the "Y gene Adam."Moving on to another point, that's the thing, life is not rare, at all. Everywhere it is possible for life to occur, it has as well as in many places we didn't think were possible. Look at thermophilic bacteria, those exist in temperatures that should reduce their proteins to mush and render them all dead, but they live. Our rapid DNA reproduction technology actually relies on the special enzyme variants these bacteria produce to function, without their existence much of our current DNA/genetic reproduction and analysis technology would have just never happened. Then there are the ecosystems that thrive around deep ocean volcanic vents, the temperatures immediately adjacent to these vents cook life dead, but organisims have adapted to live nearby and function without any energy input from the Sun. There are all kinds of bacteria that live in the Antarctic where they should have frozen solid, the solution? These bacteria have developed their own form of organic antifreeze.The only rare thing about life is complex multi-cellular life like you and me. Keep in mind that everything, every plant, animal and fungus exists in a single Domain of life (Eukarya), the other 2 (Bacteria and Archea) are found everywhere and make up the majority of things living upon the planet. So there is no coincidence there, life will occur everywhere it can and it all started out with the same basic building blocks on this planet. From there different selective pressures caused life to change and adapt or perish, which resulted in organisms becoming more and more different until they became a different species. Rinse, repeat over the course of ~2 billion years and you get a myriad of species that can still trace their ancestry back to a single progenitor organism.

Periodically, in a species, certain members will develop certain traits that make them more likely to survive/reproduce than others. These traits are then more likely to be passed on to subsequent generations. Therefore, over time, the species will evolve such that the trait becomes natural, rather than a mutation.

Everything you said is correct up until the end. The first time the trait arises it is indeed a mutation, but there after it is naturally present in the species, just rare. There is no "it evolves to be natural instead of a mutation." The second the trait is circulating about the gene pool and it is natural, the only thing of note is its frequency. This is natural selection at work. The more beneficial a trait is the more the genotype responsible for it takes a larger and larger share of all the genotypes present in the population. Over time it goes from being a rare case to the dominant variant. Over many thousands and millions of years this trait will be reinforced and become more pronounced as new mutations that further enhance the trait are selected as making the bearer more fit.For example, I'll work with sexual selection cause it's easier. A peahen likes peacocks with flashier colors and a bigger, better tail. Those colors and tail probably started as some rare occurrence in the gene pool. However, those traits denote better health and stronger genes, which is how the hens select a mate. Some males had a flashier body compared to the drab hens and the hens noted that there were healthier and better fed, meaning they would produce stronger children. Over time selection for this display forced the genotype responsible to become dominant. Constant reinforcement of this genotype encouraged any peacock that was just the slight bit more remarkable than its peers to be the fittest as his genes were the most desirable. Over the years more and more successive mutations would accumulate until you get peacocks as they are today. Various bird researchers have tested out adding frills to males (of any bird species, not just peacocks) and have seen that birds naturally are attracted to flashier males and take it as a sign of good health and good genes.
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#607 Guest_randomhero8910

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Posted 03 January 2008 - 04:44 AM

I believe in evolution and I believe in God. God created Adam and Eve, but if you read the Bible it tells you that their sons married women from the land of Nod. Where did these people come from? I don't know, but I would be willing to bet that they evolved from monkies.(JMO of course)
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#608 Guest_xprincessxzoex

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Posted 06 January 2008 - 08:06 PM

i could say we came from insects, as long as i have the proof to back my argument up. And evolution has more proof than the god method.
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#609 Guest_knubrac

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Posted 09 January 2008 - 05:01 AM

I don't believe in evolution. We are all created by her greatness, the IPU, the Invisible Pink Unicorn!

(Peace Be Unto Her) (May Her Holy Hooves Never Be Shod)

Haha. Made me laugh. I don't believe in a "god" and think that evolution is the most possible answer about where we come from.
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#610 Guest_Jyoushiro

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Posted 11 January 2008 - 02:17 AM

*only read the first post*No sane person accepts evolution as an absolute fact. It's merely the theory that has the most evidence supporting it. We see it all the time at a microscopic level like when a virus develops a new strain of itself to become immune to our treatments and such. Regardless of what creationists may think of evolutionary theory, there is practically 0 scientific evidence supporting creationism.
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#611 Guest_BillDoor

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Posted 12 January 2008 - 10:01 AM

I'm not sane for accepting it as absolute fact? Sane people accept "The Declaration of Independence was signed in 1776" as absolute fact, and all they have in favor of that statement is a lot of evidence. If we can't accept something as an absolute fact based on a mountain of evidence, what's an absolute fact, then?Mind you, I don't think that scientific ideas should be treated as unassailable "facts" - if new evidence comes to light, they must be revised or discarded. But evolution seems to take most of the heat from the "it's only a theory" camp. Most people couldn't explain to you how the molecular weight of tantalum is calculated, but when you show them the number on the periodic table, they'll rarely say, "Oh, that's just the number that best fits the evidence. It's only a theory." Only evolution gets that treatment. "Well, if you think about, all the evidence we have in its favor is lots of fossils and geographical species location data and genomes and mitochondrial DNA and anatomical homology and speciation experiments. It's still just a good theory."

Edited by BillDoor, 12 January 2008 - 10:03 AM.

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#612 _LJ_

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 11:54 PM

well, first than all, I want to talk about fosils, there are hominids fosils with a loooot of years, and they use C14 to check that. But that is not reliable, because C14´s stable life is just 5000 years, technically after that is dead, everything less older than 5000 years is ok, but anything more than 5000 is not reliable, scientists say that their metod is empiric, the fact its empiric means its just about observation, not even a theory, somethings that "seems" it could be. So, after 5000 years its dead, so its quite irresponsible to use it, you dont give your baby a yoghurt that expired months ago, because it will not do what is supposed to (nutrition), even it can have results that are far away from what is supposed to be when its fresh (you can have a disease)its not probable that evolution is right, you know in modern times they have found recently dead plesiosaurus (and dont say that they have almost the same ADN than sharks, so it was an unidentified shark, because we humans have almost same adn than monkeys, and we have almost the same skin than pigs, and milk is quite similar to cow milk), it was proven that c14 lives 5000 years.I believe in creacionism, in bible you can find explanation for continents, for different societies, for different languages, etc.
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Posted 14 January 2008 - 06:33 AM

I believe in evolution for one simple reason: there's more proof to back up the theory of evolution (tons more) than there is to support the farfetched idea (and it is an idea, not a theory. Theories require actual evidence) of creationism.
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#614 _LJ_

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 06:57 AM

then you are an empiric person (check the dictionary), because as I said the life of c14 (that is used to have that "proof") just lives 5000 years, something empiric is something with suposition, and sciencist accept that its empiric, that is way they always think that creationism is a good theory (and its a theory, not an idea, if you study you will learn that christian scientist made a theory called intelligent desing, that lists non empiric scientific reasons in how the world was created by a superior being, then you apply that to the creation in genesis)now Im really going, I was waiting the bathroom... (yeah it wasnt necessary to say that :wtf2:)
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GOD RUUUULES!!!!!!!



What can I do but look at the sky and say at every seconds how much I love you and how grateful I am my dear Friend, my Daddy, My God.


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#615 Guest_funkydude

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 01:12 PM

i dunno. there is scientific proff and all.
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#616 Guest_blackwhirlman

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 01:22 PM

I believe that there is indeed a god and that he played a part in the evolution of man through Adam and Eve, not with cave men and women.
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#617 Guest_elpovo

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 02:24 PM

On the issue of Carbon dating, it does not "die" after 5000 years; it's half life is 5730 years, the period after which the radiation in a newly created carbon atom (created in the atmosphere and existing in the organic material) will be reduced by half. After this, it will take another 5730 years for it to be reduced by half again (to 1/4 of it's original intensity) and so on and so forth. The point at which this radiation gets to a level which it can no longer be detected by scientific means is after a period of roughly 50,000 years, way longer than the creationist's 6000 years.check out wikipedia to verify all that.Next is the idea that the creation of life, through a combination of chemicals, is so unlikely that it could never have occured by chance. While this premise is indeed unlikely, we must remember the sheer scale of time and space we are dealing with. It was mentioned previously that the likelihood was 10 ^ 62 or some such, which was stated to be "three times the width of the universe". Given that the universe itself is 14 billion years old, and is 93 billion light years across (some even present it as infinite in size) the chance of the correct combination of chemicals occuring is significantly reduced. It can be compared to the flipping of a coin. If a coin is flipped once, there is a 50% chance that it will not land on heads. If we flip it twice, there is a 25% chance. If we flip it, say, 14 billion * 93 billion times, the chances of the coin not landing on heads are reduced to infinitesmal proportions. Similarly the sheer scale of the opportunities for life to begin, the flips of the coin, become increasingly more likely to the point where it would be surprising were life not to arise, somewhere, at some point in the universe's history.Finally put forward previously in a copied and pasted article was the idea that scientists had found nothing in the way of intermediate animals, particularly focusing on the idea of a half bird/half reptile. Well in truth these sort of transitional fossils have been found, called archaeopteryx, as can be seen here http://en.wikipedia....ki/ArcheopteryxThirdly, "empirical" evidence is not evidence which comes from some sort of "gut feeling", empirical evidence is based on scientific process and data; ie: observations. Gut feelings are not given credence in science at all, apart from perhaps through choosing which experiments to perform and which ones not to. A failed experiemnt proves a gut feeling is wrong, and it is rejected.
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#618 Guest_PheonixGRX

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 03:26 PM

Evolution is real, like if someone breeds with a monkey, and their child has a tail, it's called evolution, just like the dolphin with human arms.
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#619 Guest_avatarxprime

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 08:35 PM

On the issue of Carbon dating, it does not "die" after 5000 years; it's half life is 5730 years, the period after which the radiation in a newly created carbon atom (created in the atmosphere and existing in the organic material) will be reduced by half. After this, it will take another 5730 years for it to be reduced by half again (to 1/4 of it's original intensity) and so on and so forth. The point at which this radiation gets to a level which it can no longer be detected by scientific means is after a period of roughly 50,000 years, way longer than the creationist's 6000 years.

Well said. I also wanted to point out that it's not just Carbon. Radio-dating can use any radioactive substance with a known half-life to calculate ages. Scientists use other types of elements all the time. Since C-14 dating can only see things in the relatively recent past (in archeological time) it's used for that, but for something older than what C-14 can be used for they use other substances. For example, Potassium-argon dating has a half-life of 1.26x109 years. Others have far shorter time periods like Tritium with only 10 years. All are used to get as accurate a picture of the age of an object as possible.
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#620 Guest_Dark Knight J

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 08:48 PM

The theory of evolution has already been disproved so anyone who still believes that they come from an ape good for you cause you probably look like one. Any how if we evolved from those monkeys as the theory stated why hasn't the other animals evolved to suit.
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#621 Guest_walks0

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 10:15 PM

scientific theories are held as more valid the more 'falsifiable' they are. creationism is virtually impossible to falsify - it's always possible to create another interpretation of it - so its scientific merit is questionable
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#622 Guest_avatarxprime

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 05:20 AM

The theory of evolution has already been disproved so anyone who still believes that they come from an ape good for you cause you probably look like one. Any how if we evolved from those monkeys as the theory stated why hasn't the other animals evolved to suit.

First off, care to provide some proof that this theory has been disproven other than your word?Next, do realize that all animals currently alive are equally as evolved? I'm guessing not. The point of this theory is that you and a chimpanzee had a common ancestor at some point. Then something happened and what would later become a chimp and what would later became a man went on two different evolutionary paths. You did not evolve from any currently living animal as such since they are just as "evolved" or "recent" as you are.
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#623 Guest_Jyoushiro

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 05:46 AM

I'm not sane for accepting it as absolute fact? Sane people accept "The Declaration of Independence was signed in 1776" as absolute fact, and all they have in favor of that statement is a lot of evidence. If we can't accept something as an absolute fact based on a mountain of evidence, what's an absolute fact, then?Mind you, I don't think that scientific ideas should be treated as unassailable "facts" - if new evidence comes to light, they must be revised or discarded. But evolution seems to take most of the heat from the "it's only a theory" camp. Most people couldn't explain to you how the molecular weight of tantalum is calculated, but when you show them the number on the periodic table, they'll rarely say, "Oh, that's just the number that best fits the evidence. It's only a theory." Only evolution gets that treatment. "Well, if you think about, all the evidence we have in its favor is lots of fossils and geographical species location data and genomes and mitochondrial DNA and anatomical homology and speciation experiments. It's still just a good theory."

It's a mountain of evidence that doesn't can't say for certain exactly how or why evolution works. We know that there was a Declaration of Independece because we have witnessed the actual document and it says right there when it was signed as well as other recorded history that says it's true. That's COMPLETELY different from the evidence supporting evolution. If you wanted you could fly up to D.C and see the Declaration for yourself. You don't need evidence to prove something right in front of you exists. Nothing of the like exists for macro evolution. There's nothing you can see and point at and say "yep, that's evolution right there". All you can do is look at the clues and infer that it's highly probable.
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#624 Guest_jesa360

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 06:17 AM

*only read the first post*No sane person accepts evolution as an absolute fact. It's merely the theory that has the most evidence supporting it. We see it all the time at a microscopic level like when a virus develops a new strain of itself to become immune to our treatments and such. Regardless of what creationists may think of evolutionary theory, there is practically 0 scientific evidence supporting creationism.

Tell that to a Creationist. That is only a theory, too, but to them it is the word of God because it is in the Bible. I am a believer in evolution, and there is a lot of evidence to support my claims, but I respect other people's religious views. People believe what they have to believe.
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#625 Guest_BillDoor

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 06:44 AM

It's a mountain of evidence that doesn't can't say for certain exactly how or why evolution works.

We have the basic outlines. It's hard to explain how, say, segmentation first arose, but it is clear how natural selection works, to some degree, and we are beginning to unravel limb development, the mutations responsible for brain expansion, the origin of the mammalian immune system...

We know that there was a Declaration of Independece because we have witnessed the actual document and it says right there when it was signed as well as other recorded history that says it's true.

But were you there to see the Declaration of Independence signed? For all you know, that piece of paper is a clever forgery.

That's COMPLETELY different from the evidence supporting evolution. If you wanted you could fly up to D.C and see the Declaration for yourself. You don't need evidence to prove something right in front of you exists. Nothing of the like exists for macro evolution. There's nothing you can see and point at and say "yep, that's evolution right there". All you can do is look at the clues and infer that it's highly probable.

Technically, when we see a pattern of gene conservation that's consistent with a family tree of species, and the odds of this happening by chance alone are worse than 10^50 to 1 against, that does count as looking at the clues and inferring that it's highly probable. However, I trust this sort of result a lot more that I trust a signed document. I would be hugely surprised to learn that the Declaration of Independence currently in Washington, D. C. is a forgery, but a swap is conceivable. I would be much, much more surprised to learn that the patterns of conservation I see whenever I compare human, monkey, dog, mouse, rat, opossum, and zebrafish gene sequences don't actually reflect common descent.And in case you're going to object that "I can't prove that those sequences are real," I have, in fact, amplified DNA from multiple species using my own custom-made PCR primers, working from genomic sequences from that very site. So I have better evidence of the authenticity of those genomic sequences than I have of the authenticity of the Declaration of Independence.

Edited by BillDoor, 16 January 2008 - 06:48 AM.

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