The Bible is a book of morals and lessons, not a textbook. People take it far too literally and don't see the representational and deeply meaningful aspects of the Bible. Instead they argue with other people that the Earth is 4000 years old. It's ridiculous. The science textbooks don't contain any morals or deeper meanings at all, only facts and scientific theories (which are different from an ordinary theory). I've debated on this before, and wouldn't entirely mind debating on this, but I still feel that this isn't as large of a priority in the scheme of religious and philosophical debate.When a friend of mine got in this debate once, he was asked: "If we evolved from monkeys, then why are there still monkeys?"His response was "After we evolved from them god realized he ran out and said 'I shall make more monkeys!'"
Who the hell would believe in evolution???
Started by
Guest_MichahSimmons
, Jan 09 2006 08:34 PM
1136 replies to this topic
#852
Guest_Kaz74
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Posted 31 May 2008 - 08:33 AM
i dont know what i believe yet :/
#853
Guest_6SuN$Jyp)Z!.]t%G
Guest_6SuN$Jyp)Z!.]t%G
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Posted 31 May 2008 - 10:14 AM
DeinKonig: By existing, God cannot have given us free will. It's a logical impossibility. Because he is omnipotent and omniscient, he knew every single event that would ever take place when (if) he created the world. If there is a God, there is no such thing as free will.Either way, I wouldn't call "believe in me or go to hell" a good choice. Hell, if we do have free will, then he wouldn't want us to believe in him, because it makes no sense. You rationalize all the flaws of your God rather than face the fact that your religion is not at all accurate in any of its claims.I did not ask to be created, and neither did anyone else. What right did "God" have to create us? Because he's omnipotent, he should be allowed to do as he pleases?None of it adds up. Evolution however, does - both logically and scientifically.
#854
Guest_iamq
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Posted 31 May 2008 - 07:02 PM
i'll look around for an article because i saw it in docco form on SBS (australian chanel that displays alot of stuff from around the world movies, doccos, news programs and south park) but the thing that pisses me off is the people who take the bible 100% as it is because there has been so many alterations it is not the same bookas it should be there are a lot of things we can learn from the bible on how we should act but the same can be said for aesops fables (not sure on spelling) every religion has moral lessons we should learn but the mysteries of the universe should be left to science as it is better suited to the job.for all you hardcore creationists: if evolution doesnt exist how come there are black people white people asian people and everyone is not an arab?did god create arabs then decided they might be lonley so here are some white people to play with. evolution can explain this phenomonon but religion never has been able to> HMMMM think about that one and don't ask another question until you can answer thatalso DeinKonig the chances that a guy with my name the name of my parents and the name of my brother in the same state or country are astronomicaly high
Edited by iamq, 31 May 2008 - 07:08 PM.
#855
Guest_DeinKonig
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Posted 31 May 2008 - 07:11 PM
You try too hard to debunk faith, it's impossible to do...Knowing is independent of acting. God knows the past, the present, and the future because he lives outside of time. He doesn't influence our actions, but he can see what we are going to do. God can do whatever he wants. When you say what "right" did God have to create us, where do we get our morals from? The concept of right and wrong COMES from God (in MY belief).God creates Lucifer and the other angels, everything is good. Lucifer decides to try to be better than God and SEPARATES himself from God. He ABUSED his free will. Did God see it coming? Probably. Why did he do it? I don't know, the Lord works in mysterious ways, his ways are not our ways.God doesn't send us to hell, we choose hell because, after all, what is hell but eternal separation from God who is the source of all happiness?DeinKonig: By existing, God cannot have given us free will. It's a logical impossibility. Because he is omnipotent and omniscient, he knew every single event that would ever take place when (if) he created the world. If there is a God, there is no such thing as free will.Either way, I wouldn't call "believe in me or go to hell" a good choice. Hell, if we do have free will, then he wouldn't want us to believe in him, because it makes no sense. You rationalize all the flaws of your God rather than face the fact that your religion is not at all accurate in any of its claims.I did not ask to be created, and neither did anyone else. What right did "God" have to create us? Because he's omnipotent, he should be allowed to do as he pleases?None of it adds up. Evolution however, does - both logically and scientifically.
#856
Guest_6SuN$Jyp)Z!.]t%G
Guest_6SuN$Jyp)Z!.]t%G
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Posted 31 May 2008 - 07:52 PM
I never tried to debunk faith. That's an endeavour as pointless, if not more so, as trying to convince a completely insane individual that he is, in fact, insane.What I did try to debunk was the concept of free will.It's obvious you're not aware how certain things work. Merely by observing something, you have already changed it. By creating us, he acted. He knew every single event that would take place at this time, and so, we have, and will never have, any real choices. Fair enough, if he had merely been an "observer" without omniscience, he could give us free will - but he is (if what you believe is correct).The concept of right and wrong exists as a human definition - much like time, or a measure in general. Christianity did not come first, and so, if God created "right and wrong", he must have made someone who didn't believe in him aware of these things in the first place (that is, unless you're one of those people who think Christianity came before everything else bla-bla-bla-bla). You haven't really told me what gave God the right to create us, so I'll wait for you to answer that.Lucifer was a good angel, and he committed no crime as far as I see it. He believed humans were a scourge, and that it was wrong for the angels to serve them. From what I know, he was right.If you believe Hell is eternal separation from God, then your Hell is my heaven. In my belief, God is (if he exists) the source of all evil as well as all good - this makes every argument for his "goodness" void.Edit:This all seems very off-topic. It has between nothing and very little to do with evolution, and so I suggest we get back on track.Evolution is a much better theory than Creationism, because Evolution has certain facts to back it up.
Edited by 6SuN$Jyp)Z!.]t%G, 31 May 2008 - 07:53 PM.
#857
Guest_iamq
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Posted 31 May 2008 - 07:57 PM
PARADOX TIME!!!!!!!DeinKonig see if you can follow my logicfaith is unwavering belife in somthing that has no proof wether it makes sense or not right?now logic is a conclusion based on knowlage at the time usualy through linear thinking making most sensenow if you have faith in god you cannot follow logic because gods existance defies logicsince they are oppisites how can you be both the same place on a map can't be solid blue adn solid red at the same timenow what do you follow faith or logic
Edited by iamq, 31 May 2008 - 07:57 PM.
#858
Guest_DeinKonig
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Posted 31 May 2008 - 08:03 PM
Both. Faith in that God exists (actually, I have logically come to the conclusion of that, but I have faith in his goodness and love). Logic in trying to understand the creation he made. I don't see how God's existence defies logic... about the color thing, if you want to get really nit-picky, all color is relative to the individual who is viewing it. Therefore one person may see it as solid blue and the other may see it as solid red.I don't deny evolution. I think that's how God may have done his thing. Adam and Eve, if not just symbolic people, may have been the first recognizable humans on the chain of evolution.PARADOX TIME!!!!!!!DeinKonig see if you can follow my logicfaith is unwavering belife in somthing that has no proof wether it makes sense or not right?now logic is a conclusion based on knowlage at the time usualy through linear thinking making most sensenow if you have faith in god you cannot follow logic because gods existance defies logicsince they are oppisites how can you be both the same place on a map can't be solid blue adn solid red at the same timenow what do you follow faith or logic
#859
Guest_iamq
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Posted 31 May 2008 - 08:13 PM
i give you alot of creditmost people don't answer that question but you found my intensional flaw very good most people don't have enough conviction to answer that question but you hit the nail one the head (the reason i created that "paradox" is most people won't admit their stupid so it stops a lot of arguments with a win for me) you're alot further along than most people i know when it comes to religionbut if you belive in evolution why are we still arguing
#860
Guest_banjoterror
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Posted 02 June 2008 - 06:49 PM
If someone else puts an argument "nicely," and if you cannot present anything new to the argument "nicely," then please stay out of the debate as your inarticulate post (which even contains an unnecessary ad hominem attack) just lets the inarticulate original poster seem at all reasonable in his response to you. I just point that out as a shamelessly irreligious person that loves to see religious people get torn up in debates, but who has a problem with getting emotional and spouting inarticulate anger in those same debates.Put more briefly if you are right you shouldn't need to trash on your opponent, your rightness should prevail in itself.Canaid put it all quite nicelly, so all i'll do is ask but one thing. what do you believe in? God? That fantasy used to explain everything that simple minded fools cannot? If so think for a second, can you prove he/she/it exists? and what created it?(since he can't just have poofed out of nowhere all of a sudden) and then what created its creator and so on. On the other hand evolution is proved through a lot of resemblances found from fossils or actual dinosaurs bones. Sure it cannot prove where it all started but then again what can?
#861
Guest_pkdawg73
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Posted 02 June 2008 - 10:13 PM
The thing that most people who don't agree with evolution don't understand about the theory is that it's a very passive process. Hundreds of people every day are born with genetic defects. Some for the better, some for the worse. We know this. The theory of evolution simply says that if you possess a beneficial defect, you'll live longer, have more offspring, and pass on the trait to all of them. Eventually enough individuals will possess the trait to consider it the norm in the species. Unless you don't believe in DNA, then that can't be denied.
#862
Guest_Mortified
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Posted 03 June 2008 - 02:55 AM
Fossils, related species, survival of the fittest. Nuff said. But in all seriousness, I don't see why anyone who believes in God should decide that evolution is false.
Shouldn't they just say that, and get over it? There has to be some ways that things work, even if they're thousands of years old. It kind of ties in to intelligent design, that someone/thing fit everything together. Question, however. Why should people deny the existence of evolution, and claim that Adam and Eve were the first humans on earth, when there are fossils of intelligent humans thousands of years before the Bible states the Earth was created?I don't deny evolution. I think that's how God may have done his thing.
#863
Guest_DeinKonig
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Posted 03 June 2008 - 03:27 AM
The Bible doesn't say when the Earth was created, and if you look a little bit after the creation story, you see a LOT of history passing (either figuratively or literally, its a LONG time) with the descendents of Adam and Eve (like tons and tons of them, each living upwards of 750 years, maybe being literal, or maybe just indicating an extremely long passage of time). The part about the people denying evolution is an example of people being hardheaded in the Church. We've seen it in the past, (Galileo, Copernicus, etc) with logical evidence being placed before people, but them being unable to accept it. It's kind of strange to me though because it isn't really all that earth shattering news anyway.Fossils, related species, survival of the fittest. Nuff said. But in all seriousness, I don't see why anyone who believes in God should decide that evolution is false. Shouldn't they just say that, and get over it? There has to be some ways that things work, even if they're thousands of years old. It kind of ties in to intelligent design, that someone/thing fit everything together. Question, however. Why should people deny the existence of evolution, and claim that Adam and Eve were the first humans on earth, when there are fossils of intelligent humans thousands of years before the Bible states the Earth was created?
Edited by DeinKonig, 03 June 2008 - 03:27 AM.
#864
Guest_Christlicher Soldat
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Posted 06 June 2008 - 01:51 AM
I see a good deal of misconception here that is common to most of this discussion. Most of those who hold to young earth creationism don’t dispute evolution theoretically. They may say, from time to time, that evolution is indefensible, ridiculous, presuppositional, etc., but what they mean by “evolution” in such statements is ontological evolutionism -- the philosophy that the process of evolution accounts for the full variance of species on this planet. That they believe in evolution is easily demonstrated by their distinction between “macro”-evolution and “micro”-evolution. Simply put, the prevailing young earth creationism theory is that natural selection has acted upon a set of created biblical kinds or “baramin.” In fact, the very reason that we use the word "species" in biology is because Carolus Linnaeus (Karl von Linné), a Swedish Protestant who espoused a very similar theory of origins (the only thing really lacking from the theory as Linnaeus expressed it was the mechanism of natural selection), used the Latin word for "kind" found in the Vulgate.for all you hardcore creationists: if evolution doesnt exist how come there are black people white people asian people and everyone is not an arab?did god create arabs then decided they might be lonley so here are some white people to play with. evolution can explain this phenomonon but religion never has been able to> HMMMM think about that one and don't ask another question until you can answer that
#865
Guest_gotmilk3293
Guest_gotmilk3293
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Posted 06 June 2008 - 03:09 AM
Though i believe in God strongly and always have, I think that the story of Adam and Eve is more of a parable than actual truth.Evolution is a more reasonable and logic way to go. This doesnt rule out the Adam and Eve story in any way however
#866
Guest_szylit
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Posted 06 June 2008 - 10:42 PM
ok, then, lets consider that god created everything.Explain the dinossaur fossils.Wait, is it from animals that died in the big flood? Really? Then explain how there is "only a few" of them, and how there are many proofs that show that the fossil has existed for a longer time than what religion says the world has existed.Also, its not every bone that becomes a fossil, you know...And at least cientists have some proof to back evolution up, different than you...Really, only one evolutionary line with about 5 specimens capable of showing one evolving into the other is enough to prove evolution. That, and how some humans are born with 6 fingers in each hand.Also, I think you misunderstand what the evolution theory is about... its not a specimen who evolves during its lifetime, its about a genetic modification (wich can be witnessed today, like the 6 fingered humans) that changes the offspring... for a while, it would have no difference, but with time, those genetic modifications could build up in a certain group of a particular specimen, making it another specimen, who can't survive where the other can, and/or can survive where the other can't, and then the genetic modifications would keep building up.Also, the only people who ignore the FACTS that support evolution have no facts to suport their claim. No, the bible is not a fact. If it was, All of the 600 "facts" would contradict themselfes. Also, there woudl be no reason for so many people live in pain because they have no money.All I'm saying is that although there is what evolutionists (in general, mind you) would like to present as substantial evidence in support of evolution, there is also an even greater amount of evidence (though oftenly suppressed or ignored) which has arisen from or been taken as a sample from those same evolutionist's findings!! Ex) the "fossil" record? evolutionists would present that from the fossil record can be found many examples of creatures "evolving" into some state we witness today. However, if a person were to use common sense, taking into account that on the basis of the evolutionists' statements every creature here today is evolved from some previous form, shouldn't we be able to find MILLIONS of such examples, and not just the few we see today???? Just one example of many. Topic open to opinions...Topic discussions include the origin of man, the theory of evolution, the origins of life, the origins of the universe, and creation theory.
#867
Guest_DeinKonig
Guest_DeinKonig
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Posted 07 June 2008 - 02:20 AM
The Bible doesn't give a specific date when the earth was created, it doesn't even come close to, or hint very much except that it was a long time ago. Anyways, not all religious people don't believe in evolution; actually, I'd say a rather a lot of people that aren't just blindly following and trying to understand the world as God intended DO believe in evolution (read my previous posts).Also, I think I remember hearing about fossils occasionally being found at the same elevation (aka, really close to) human or human-like fossil bones. So who can really tell about what existed when?ok, then, lets consider that god created everything.Explain the dinossaur fossils.Wait, is it from animals that died in the big flood? Really? Then explain how there is "only a few" of them, and how there are many proofs that show that the fossil has existed for a longer time than what religion says the world has existed.
#868
Guest_Personification
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Posted 07 June 2008 - 03:14 AM
We can. I remember hearing about something called radioactive dating.Also, I think I remember hearing about fossils occasionally being found at the same elevation (aka, really close to) human or human-like fossil bones. So who can really tell about what existed when?
#869
Guest_DeinKonig
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Posted 07 June 2008 - 04:56 AM
Normally called carbon dating, and there's no need for sarcasm. Lol, sorry I must have been high or dead tired when I posted that last thing.We can. I remember hearing about something called radioactive dating.
#870
Guest_Young Mage
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Posted 07 June 2008 - 05:36 PM
This whole thread depends on what you believe, I'm Muslim, but I believe evolution, and in Christianity, they believe in evolution.
#871
Guest_DeadlySins
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Posted 12 June 2008 - 12:34 PM
Evolution is load of lies in my opinion, how could we have evolved from apes. Also has anyone noticed that people say evolution is different from mutation (if anyone understands how please tell me). Scientists say evolution is real but they also say the big bang happened which as far as I know was the something to do with the sun which made it spit out the planets as just balls of rock. If this really happened, did we evolve from rocks? I'm not religeous but I believe in god not as a being, not as someone you go to heaven and see (I also don't believe in heaven or hell) but as something thats there. Sort of like air you can't see it or feel it but you know it's there, after all no matter how far back you go something had to come from somewhere. God in my opinion is just the thing that started everything. In other words God is time. I would love to hear your opinions though.
#872
cgfreak
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Posted 12 June 2008 - 12:44 PM
Um, evolution is mutation. Evolution is defined as "process of change in the inherited traits of a population of organisms from one generation to the next.". This means that a specimen's genes change, and said specimen passes on said changed genes. How do these genes change? Mutation.Evolution is load of lies in my opinion, how could we have evolved from apes. Also has anyone noticed that people say evolution is different from mutation (if anyone understands how please tell me).
Um... no.Scientists say evolution is real but they also say the big bang happened which as far as I know was the something to do with the sun which made it spit out the planets as just balls of rock.
It's a long explanation, and if you ask me, I'll post in my next post, but it's definitely not what you're saying here.Not from rock, but in a way, yes.If this really happened, did we evolve from rocks?
re·li·gious (r-ljs)adj. 1. Having or showing belief in and reverence for God or a deity.I'm not religeous but I believe in god not as a being, not as someone you go to heaven and see (I also don't believe in heaven or hell) but as something thats there. Sort of like air you can't see it or feel it but you know it's there, after all no matter how far back you go something had to come from somewhere. God in my opinion is just the thing that started everything. In other words God is time. I would love to hear your opinions though.
i do remember one thing.
it took hours and hours but.
by the time i was done with it.
i was so involved. i didn't even know what to think.
i carried it around with me for days. and days.
playing little games.
like. not looking at it for a whole day.
and then. looking at it.
to see if I still liked it.
i did.
it took hours and hours but.
by the time i was done with it.
i was so involved. i didn't even know what to think.
i carried it around with me for days. and days.
playing little games.
like. not looking at it for a whole day.
and then. looking at it.
to see if I still liked it.
i did.
#873
Guest_Jouten
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Posted 12 June 2008 - 02:17 PM
Actually we didn't evolve from apes.There were a forfather of apes and human.The split up into two races.Also if Human didn't evolve from inferior beings, where did they come from?They were ther since the beginning?And how do you explain that there were found no skeletons of Human in the very past ( when Human didn't exist, but you probably don't believe that.)Don't take it offfensive but i think you are very simple minded. Unvierse is a bit bigger than our soalr system.I don't want to say that you may not belive in god as someone who directs your destiny or something.But it'S pretty much proven taht god didn't create Human and all the otehr animals.Evolution is the only true thing in life.Anyone not believing it, weill it's their problem.But you must know that we particulary exist from Cells that just started to merge together by merging their membrans.Did you ever go to school? Well there you'd have learned about that.Evolution is load of lies in my opinion, how could we have evolved from apes. Also has anyone noticed that people say evolution is different from mutation (if anyone understands how please tell me). Scientists say evolution is real but they also say the big bang happened which as far as I know was the something to do with the sun which made it spit out the planets as just balls of rock. If this really happened, did we evolve from rocks? I'm not religeous but I believe in god not as a being, not as someone you go to heaven and see (I also don't believe in heaven or hell) but as something thats there. Sort of like air you can't see it or feel it but you know it's there, after all no matter how far back you go something had to come from somewhere. God in my opinion is just the thing that started everything. In other words God is time. I would love to hear your opinions though.
#874
Guest_AstroChiken
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Posted 16 June 2008 - 01:51 AM
I believe in Micro evolution. theres evidence, and its perfectly plausable. But, I severely doubt that Macro evolution is true. It's just... unlikely in my mind.
probably because Fossils are very fragile and easily destroyedAnd how do you explain that there were found no skeletons of Human in the very past ( when Human didn't exist, but you probably don't believe that.)
I'd like to see this proof sometime.But it'S pretty much proven taht god didn't create Human and all the otehr animals.
#875
Guest_gamerlockheart
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Posted 24 June 2008 - 05:41 PM
One proof of evolution are fossils and the oil fuel we are using now-a-days.The mammoth find was another proof, this proves that elephants evolved some creature which is the mammoth.And the diversities for closely related species, for example, the big cats.The cheetah evolved from a primitive big cat, the cheetah has taken the 'speed is better than power route' and the lions which has taken power over speed, there's also the jaguar, the leopard, and the tiger. Well you get my point, evolution is real.Further more, if you claim that God is the source of all, since the universe must have come from something (since from nothing, nothing come, and since the universe began to exist, it must have a cause), and science can't really clearly explain where the universe come from. But what contradicts is, if God created all, who created God?, and if God created universe, from what did he(it's always he and never a she) create it from?
